Scenario 9: The Valley of Death

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potatomanjack
Posts: 39
Joined: July 14th, 2009, 4:41 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by potatomanjack » July 28th, 2009, 2:30 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.4.1 - Medium
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear... Meh for interesting
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Figuring out a strategy that worked
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Upkeep was probably one of the biggest challenges for me, and also annoying, but that's a personal thing. Don't think there's too much that needs to be done.


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One thing I'd like to see is a replay of someone killing all 3 liches. I could understand how you could get 2 killed, but taking on the third within the time limit seems like it would be a huge case of luck and saveloading to get done. I keep hearing about 1-2 horsemen/paladins taking out an enemy leader on their own. To send a couple of paladin or horseman against a lich w/army is a pretty good way to lose a couple of units, and you'd really have to be counting on good luck to make it through the entire army and kill the lich without losing them. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but whenever I tried to send a powerful couple of units against east, they always got overflowed with WCs sacrficing themselves, and making room for the next one to come in. 7-2 x 10 WCs is pretty darn deadly, even against a paladin.
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"Work is the scourge of the drinking class." ~Oscar Wilde

scorchgeek
Posts: 12
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 9:11 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by scorchgeek » August 9th, 2009, 8:55 pm

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Medium, 1.6.2
2. 8
3. Easy. Survive or kill everything.
4. Pretty clear. Having played for a fair while (and this is my 3rd time on HttT), I understood Kalenz' remark about the holy water, but I thought new players might not know that those little bottle tiles represented holy water. Is there any clearly marked in any of the "beginner" campaigns? If not, it might be nice to have Delfador say something like "There's some on the map not far from here" (yeah, I stink at making up dialogue).
5. Finding a good strategy. I first tried recruiting some units and defending in the castle, but all my L2 units got massacred by Wraiths. So then I took part of a strategy in the walkthrough and recruited several keeps of thieves, then retreated quickly to the SE corner, where I stayed alive just long enough. I do wish I hadn't wasted all 423 gold I had at the beginning, though.
6. 8--if I had not found a good strategy, though, it would have been about a 3 for the number of restarts.
7. Nothing except maybe not let the enemy recruit as many Wraiths.
If 'con' is the opposite of 'pro', what is the opposite of progress?

energyman76c
Posts: 199
Joined: May 26th, 2004, 9:38 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by energyman76c » August 9th, 2009, 9:20 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

all versions except 1.7.2. Almost all difficultes.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7-9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

very

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

it is ok.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

that god damn dead birds riding skeletons! And Wraiths! And dead bird riding skeletons! And...

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9. It is one of my favorites.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

nothing.

My strategy:
one fast unit, outrider, knight, something like that, to each of the bottles of holy water. A group of elves with a healing unit into the eastern forest. Kalenz is there too so is an elvish marshall.
A bunch of robust units to the south. Lvl2 white mages, some 'tanks', Paladin, if possible a Sylph or two, Shydes druides or a shaman, lvl2&3 mages, lvl4 if available. The undead leader there is usually dead very quickly. Konrad, Delfi, a white mage, some lvl1 mages and maybe one or two cannon fodder units to the north. Bunker up at the vilalge, survive the first wave, then counterattack and destroy enemy.

I am usually able to level several units and kill the last undead leader at turn 11 or 12.

sw_emigre
Posts: 38
Joined: August 10th, 2009, 10:17 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by sw_emigre » August 11th, 2009, 2:57 am

[quote="Dave"](1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Meduim, version 1.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
On a 1-10 scale, about an 83. I've played it 5 times, no luck whatsoever. Even restarted the entire scenario to change my levelled up guys, and finally I was able to attack the south lich and hide.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Fine.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Kinda silly. Why would I leave Lisnar alive? And why exactly do the undead just leave after 2 days? Aren't they still hungry?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The wraiths. Can't do much when a dozen come at you at once.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Zero. I hope to finish the rest of the campaign and never visit it again, just to avoid this one scenario.
I know I sound melodramatic, but I registered on this forum just no for the sole purpose of letting you know that I LOVE BfW but I hated this scene.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Most of the walkthroughs seem to expect a mountain of WC coming from the east. Perhaps the program has changed, or I had amazingly bad luck, but in my 5-6 attempts, East loaded up with wraiths on its first round every time. They can be distracted in the forest with elves, but I can't conceive of legitimately fighting them and two other armies as well.

Panpiper
Posts: 9
Joined: September 12th, 2007, 3:48 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Panpiper » August 20th, 2009, 6:05 pm

potatomanjack wrote: One thing I'd like to see is a replay of someone killing all 3 liches. I could understand how you could get 2 killed, but taking on the third within the time limit seems like it would be a huge case of luck and saveloading to get done. I keep hearing about 1-2 horsemen/paladins taking out an enemy leader on their own. To send a couple of paladin or horseman against a lich w/army is a pretty good way to lose a couple of units, and you'd really have to be counting on good luck to make it through the entire army and kill the lich without losing them. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but whenever I tried to send a powerful couple of units against east, they always got overflowed with WCs sacrficing themselves, and making room for the next one to come in. 7-2 x 10 WCs is pretty darn deadly, even against a paladin.
You may get your wish, I am about to replay the game and the main campaign after a few years absence. I note that when I played this scenario the first time and killed all three liches (on medium), it was 'not' by sending a couple of horsemen to take on the lich "w/army". I did take out both the northern and eastern liches using two mounted units (grand knight and paladin), but I was able to do so because I had successfully pulled their armies away with distracting forces. The northern lich army was distracted by an elf in the center forest being closer to them than the two mounted units sweeping up the left side of the map. The eastern walking dead were distracted by two horsemen I sent southeast and then after getting the holy water, driving toward the eastern lich (which was a feint only, lost one while the other ran south, walking dead in pursuit). It was because the armies were out of position to support the northern and eastern liches, that the two leveled mounted units were able to hit both the northern and eastern liches unopposed. The southern lich was dealt with through the simple expedient of hitting it head on the the brunt of my forces.

I'm hoping the reward for actually killing all three liches has been improved somewhat (it was non-existent the time I played). That was the only disappointment with this otherwise excellent scenario.
Last edited by Panpiper on August 20th, 2009, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigCheese
Posts: 27
Joined: August 20th, 2009, 7:05 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by BigCheese » August 20th, 2009, 7:34 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Meduim, version 1.7.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6. The first few turns are a shock. 3 enemies, same distance to the player, large castles, many recruitment, battle lines meet at night. But it wasn't as hard/unfair as I first thought.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Fine. However, the dialogue implies to sit in the castle and defend/survive. This is no good idea. Even with elves in the near forest, merfolks in the wather etc. the enemy will swarm you all at once and losses in valuable units are unavoidable. Its better to leave the castle and "kite" the enemy forces, so that you can fight one army after the other and not their combined strengh together.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
At turn 12 the undead leave because the sun is rising. But while playing those 12 turns there is the normal day/night cycle and the undead don't care at all. However, changing the time to "always night" might be overkill. Perhaps they could leave because they are losing the battle. They only have massive recruitment in the first 2-3 turns, then go down to almost zero. At turn 12 most of their forces are already destroyed. The surviving part is less and less relavant in the later turns.
Edit: My fault, the end dialogue already states they're retreating because the sun is rising agein AND they have no/few troops left.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hiring and placing enough cannonfodder to keep my more valuable troops from beeing doubled/surrounded.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Good/challenging first turns, no survival feeling at the end. Its nice that there ain't an objective you must achive (away from staying alive), giving more freedom in what to do, when to do and where to move.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Constant recruitment from the enemy. Perhaps start low and increase the waves (in number or quality) each round instead of having 2-3 rounds of massive recruitment. This would give more of a survival/overwhemed feeling. To stop "rush and kill the leaders in the first weak turns" place some strong (imobile) bodyguards.

Edit: Example. A castle has 7 Hexes + Tower. There are the lich (tower) and 4 bodyguards (4 hexes). The lich can only recruit 3 hexes each turn. Every 2 turns one of the bodyguards will move out to attack, opening an additional hex for recruitment. Therefore the attacking forces will be weaker in the beginning (fewer recruitment hexes) and stronger later (more room for recruitment). The lich will be guarded during the early turns of weak/few recruitmen by the hex-blocking guards.

Also place the holy water in front of the gates (Kalenz might have brought it with him). There's no logic in having 2 vials of holy water laying around in a undead infested no mans land.
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Panpiper
Posts: 9
Joined: September 12th, 2007, 3:48 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Panpiper » August 20th, 2009, 8:02 pm

BigCheese wrote:To stop "rush and kill the leaders in the first weak turns" place some strong (imobile) bodyguards.
I don't think anyone is 'rushing' through the huge armies the liches start out with to kill them early. Maybe I need to re-read people's reports? I fear giving them strong bodyguards would make it utterly impossible to ever 'win' this scenario, which is already in my opinion the most difficult scenario in the game.

lostnumber
Posts: 197
Joined: September 23rd, 2008, 1:06 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by lostnumber » August 22nd, 2009, 1:08 am

I feel so freaking gipped...

I spent about 3.5 hours beating this on hard and it took me about 5 tries (starting from turn 1). Finally on turn 12 (after losing about half of my high level units) I managed to defeat the final lich.

My super uber duper reward? Absolutely NOTHING

This is a SERIOUSLY broken scenario if you ask me. The special victory condition is one of the hardest of any I can remember in a Wesnoth campaign, and you get absolutely squat for a reward. Either give us a decent reward or take out that bs about a special victory by defeating all 3 liches.

I'm steamed... I'm going to take a break for a while and beat it by turtling in a corner tomorrow so I dont lose half my men.

Panpiper
Posts: 9
Joined: September 12th, 2007, 3:48 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Panpiper » August 22nd, 2009, 1:36 am

I completely agree. This is quite possibly the most challenging scenario in the game, and in my opinion a very good scenario. The one fault of that lack of a proper reward is a truly huge one that really mars the otherwise excellent experience. However I doubt any developer really pays attention to reviews of a scenario that is years old.

Elvish Scientist
Posts: 62
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 11:06 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Elvish Scientist » December 12th, 2009, 2:19 pm

I just finished this scenario on normal, without loosing a single unit.
Spoiler:
At turn 11 I had killed all enemies, without loosing a single unit. Many units became level 3. Only my gold was completely drained. I could have recalled less units for the second half of the game. But I think I will have opportunity to earn a lot of gold on the next level.

Replay included.
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Jozrael
Posts: 1034
Joined: June 2nd, 2006, 1:39 pm
Location: NJ, USA.

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Jozrael » December 14th, 2009, 9:39 am

Spoiler tags plox?

MawhrinSkel
Posts: 17
Joined: February 21st, 2006, 9:04 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by MawhrinSkel » February 4th, 2010, 12:31 am

Took me a while, but I killed all 3 liches on hard in turn 9. Version 1.6.5. No white mage reinforcements, got a bit lucky with some hits. The turn bonus left me for the next scenario a bonus of (wait for it...) two gold!

The last time I played this there were still Holy attacks, and a single charging hit from a knight (or paladin) with holy weapons at daytime was enough to kill a lich: not so with arcane weapons. Great knights are probably too slow and I didn't have any anyway: lancers are the way to go, but I had one.
Spoiler:
Edit:
Spoiler:
I tried spending all my gold on mermen fighters to occupy the central moat a couple of times with no success. The undead made a lot of sushi.
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Cornuthaum
Posts: 13
Joined: February 16th, 2010, 9:34 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Cornuthaum » February 16th, 2010, 9:50 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.6.5, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 - Really, really, REALLY hard.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly clear. Survive!

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty clear, except I'm not too sure why bottles of holy water are lying around in the empty grassland in the middle of Wesnoth.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not losing my precious beloved advanced units. Also, surviving.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 - Desperate siege type battle, sallying forth during the daylight to smash some heads, praying to the RNG not to horribly murder me during the night, it was cool... but hard.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Move the Holy Water much, much closer - six or seven tiles - from the castle gates. Or even closer.

Jozrael
Posts: 1034
Joined: June 2nd, 2006, 1:39 pm
Location: NJ, USA.

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Jozrael » February 16th, 2010, 2:20 pm

I kindaaa like it being so far away, meaning it's more of a choice. I also therefore generally use horsemen/knights to get it :P

Capdeville
Posts: 1
Joined: February 17th, 2010, 11:38 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HttT) Valley of Death

Post by Capdeville » February 17th, 2010, 11:51 am

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium 1.6.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1-10? 15! This scenario is frustrantingly difficult!


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Confusing, the storyline is developing in a very interesting way up to this point. But I find it rather naive that Delfador, Konrad and the other Elf lord don´t realize they are walking into such an obvious trap! Moreover why didn´t they take Lisar has a prisioner? Or killed her?


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

I still haven´t been able to finish it! And even if I do manage to finish this scenario I fear it will require to sacrifice most of my leveled up forces! The Lich from the east seems to prefer Wraits rather then walking corpses...combined with the North army they crush my forces easily...even if I leave some cannon fodder behind (wich is a tactic that I don´t like to use...) they kill them with ease...

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)


0 (zero) I´m sorry...but this is a very frustrating scenario.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Improve the storyline...it´s very naive has it is...maybe give me some reinforcements in turn 2 or 3 to level up the ods?

I registered just to give you this feedback...I´m a new player to Wesnoth and I was really enjoying the game so far. This scenario is 10 times more dificult then any other from the South Guard or Tale of Two Brothers or Elves Besieged or any other from Heir to the trone up to this point...

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