Scenario 9: The Valley of Death

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drachefly
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Post by drachefly »

Ken Oh wrote:
drachefly wrote:Jeez, I thought there were more necromancers IN the Valley of Death than in the thread ABOUT the valley of death.

(OKay, they're really liches, whatever)
aha, i get it. people are bringing this thread back from the dead.
Though to be fair, I get the impression that this thread is sort of intended to stick around and be filled in as people feel the urge.

Which reminds me, I never reviewed this level.

1) Difficulty settings
Medium, hard

2) Difficulty of level
for a perfectionist, it's a nightmare. If you're willing to lose a few units, it's not so bad.
The higher level was surprisingly NOT so much harder because as nasty as wraiths are, the eastern lich recruiting them greatly reduces the number of WC-s. Either that or when I played through again it was on a different version and he had a smaller castle.

3) Clarity of objectives.
Very clear, though it's sort of silly that if you just have Kalenz, Delfador, and Konrad each with 1 hit point, each surrounded by 6 2nd-level undead at full health, and the third day comes... you win! What's so special about this THIRD day? The undead made it through two previous days.

4) Dialog.
If an explanation for the objective were provided, then that would surely be implemented through more dialog. No further issues here.

5) Specific challenges
Very little protective terrain is available. The nearby patch of woods is attractive but fatal -- all three armies hit you at the same time and you get crunched. If you go north or south, you'll face Chocobones, and they are really nasty, they can take out high-level units in one attack. Also, the packs of wraiths are tough customers. You have to be very careful with ZoC, since the enemy has many fast units they can circle around with. The temptation to go for villages is strong, since you're going to be running in the red, but this stretches out your lines.
If you screw the villages and decide you can handle the Ford of Abez with 100 gold, that helps a bit.

6) Fun
Aside from that sinking feeling when I realize I should probably start over because I used an Elvish Champion as the center of my eastern front, prompting the eastern lich to feed 15 WC-s to him, thus killing him, followed up with wraiths pouring through the gap in the line, wiping out my mages...
And aside from the very strong degree of randomness in my enemies' recruitment choices (Two chocobones in the same army? Someone is going to die. End of question)...
kind of fun.
6/10. One of the levels I come back to just for a challenge.

7) Suggested changes:
Have this valley only have the curse of undead when there is fog present. After three days, the fog lifts, and the undead vanish. Of course, this means you need to play with fog. That would make it even more nerve-wracking.
OR
Have some really old WM-type with no attacks pop up at the beginning and begin a really long spell that will wipe out the undead. You need to protect him until he's done. Does not join your army at the end.
OR
Alternately, have the enemy start with all the units they'll get. This would scare the pants off the player and yet also prevent imbalance by recruitment selections and also make the level different from other levels -- some undead are created fairly nearby, others further off.

This last would be a radical change and require some effort, to be sure.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it. -- You-know-who
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joshudson
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Post by joshudson »

I have to admit, I'm used to roundly trouncing the undead on this map. It's no surprise to me that the undead run away.

My roommate scraped the map bare.
borisblue
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Post by borisblue »

1) Difficulty settings
easy 8.4.0

2) Difficulty of level
Really difficult, but I was stupid enough to sit in my castle and defend
3) Clarity of objectives.
Very clear. I prefer two days to 12 turns (player can see the turns in toolbar anyway) Need clearer explanation on effects of Holy Water.

4) Dialog.
Hard to believe that Konrad and co were stupid enough to take directions from Li'sar. Otherwise OK

5) Specific challenges
Hordes of undead. The time was just enough for me.

6) Fun
Honestly, I'd say it's one of the best scenarios in Httt. I like the fact that there's a variety of tactical options that u can use to win. (attack north, attack south, sit in center)


7) Suggested changes:
Southern leader is too weak compared to the other two. Maybe make him a little stronger.
samael
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Post by samael »

Hi, I'm a newbie and I really like this scenario, and my "finish" surprised me... it was a great pleasure.

I play with version 0.9.1

NB : I'm french so sorry for my poor english... (EDIT : I correct some parts)

(1) I played the scenario on easy level (I'm a beginner...)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario ?

It depend. At the start I was impressed and I thought that it will be very difficult, and I did not want to loose my experienced units. I was prepared to loose great quantity of my units, but in the middle of the battle I realised that I took the advantage so all my armies ran in trhee directions and finally I crushed the trhree enemmy leaders and won on the 12 turn (the last one) !!! "Exultation", that's the word I think, "yeaaaaaaaah", I'll cried in the middle of the night...

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Perfectly clear.... survive.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Short, efficace.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

My first challenges :

- Survive
- Don't loose my experienced units.

When I realise that I take the advantage in the battle:

- Run faster for kill the leaders before the 12 turn (the last turn), "Vengeance..."

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

Clearly 10

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

No one for me.

---

If you are interested :

For the units I used, at this point of the game I have only developped elven experienced units. And at the start of the mission, I have enough gold to recall my bests units and for buy some units of lesser level (perhaps 20 units ?).

I divide my force into three parts to create three distinct fight front, far away from the castle for could have the leaders retreat.

First, all my best units goes to the south (versus skeletons lvl 1 & 2 with ennemy leader I) with Delfador : I think three elven heroes, two elven sorceresses and some elf warriors level 1 - I don't now why but the ennemy leader 1 approach from me and I take this opportunuty to kill him the first (with the help of Delfador, thanks Delfador...).

Second there is a little forest to the east, and elves are stronger into forest. With a group of 6-8 elven archers and the hero elf lvl 2 (I didn't remember his name), I form a wall of lvl 1 archers in th wood.

And Konrad with two "vengeur elfe" (Elven avenger ?) ran to take the holy potion at the west then they fight (with success) the phantoms (lvl 2).

At the start I plane to resist the more longer then reply in the castle when it becomes two dangerous for the leaders.

But near the middle of the party, I realised that I was taken the advantage : ennemy leader I killed, the south army was pratically defeated, with few loss for me (few lvl1 warriors)

At the east the wall of archers successfully resist with no losses (!!!) and Konrad has killed all the spectres. Few turn later, it was clear that the balance of forces has changed so I start to ran faster enough to kill the 2 other ennemy leaders... And finally with the loss of few units (only lvl 1), a punition for the undead, I think I've never have a such pleasure for winning a battle !
im the one you think of
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Post by im the one you think of »

i think this map could really be improved by overhauling the map and having quite a lot more hills, different starting positions and have the magical fog of war that was suggested earlier, maybe also the suggestion of just having lots of undead rather than leaders, this would fit with what lisar says about how many undead have wandered into the northern road
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appleide
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Post by appleide »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy, Normal
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very Clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Absolutely not interesting. Watching 30 WCs walking one by one even at accelerated speed makes me feel like I should go eat some instant noodles before coming back.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Having only 100 gold left after Princess of Wesnoth, so All I could do was recruit 5 units. ( I played PoW many times, trying to keep at least some of my fortune, but I could never do it. THe only way I could beat princess was to recruit 6-7 level 1 meat shields, and like 2 rangers, 2 heroes, 1 marshal, 1 captain, 2 druids, 2 marksman, then sit at the forest till turn 17+, when there are no more troops to kill, because they all died at edge of forest. I also needed to recall 2 knights+ grand knight + elf horseman to distract enemy. That wasted all my 500 gold. :()
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Reduce number of WCs, give more turns to the previous scenario.
Why did the fish laugh? Because the sea weed.
mega
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Post by mega »

(1) medium, 1.1.2
(2) 7
(3) very
(4) ok
(5) Trial and error on which enemy to take out, the one in the eastern walking dead factory or the one at southwest. Keeping the storyline chars alive. Assassinating both leaders (couldn't pull it off, the eastern one survivid.)
(6) 5, it was a tad frustrating
(7) maybe one less hex to the walking dead guy
cheerful coffin
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Post by cheerful coffin »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.0.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10. It's wicked sick :evil:

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Survive for 2 days? I think I will just look at the turn limits and figure what it means...

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I am still not sure why the undead suddenly stops on day 3. The explanation by Delfador is not very satisfying. But I don't really care at that time since Konrad has a near-death experience.

btw, what are all the undead doing here? Are they having a halloween party :p?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
figuring out which undead party I should eliminate first (I stupidly choose the Eastern one on the first time).

Prevent Konrad/Champion from getting themselves killed while letting them kill a lot of undead to prevent getting swarmed later (this is quite contradictory...) when defending in the northern castle.

I was planning to go SW instead, but I was afraid of Chocobone.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. I would have given 7, but WCs surely are taking their time. The chocobones are kinda funny (not so when all their charges hit :shock:)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
There are way too many WCs, and most of them are too far away from the battlefield to make any difference. That probably needs to be adjusted.
fyo
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Post by fyo »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
medium (versions 1.0 and 1.1.11)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 on 1.0
8 on 1.1.11

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
ok.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not getting any of the vital units killed while still at least going for all three liches.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. I found it a bit too difficult on 1.1.11. It's taken me many, many hours to get through with the units I had (only three L3 units: Konrad, a Paladin and an Outrider - and not a lot of useful L2s, e.g. only one white mage, one knight, one druid and one lancer).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Probably not much. Maybe slightly easier. The southern liche kept summing two chokobones in the first round, which was a hassle. It also insisted on trying to suicide on my L3 units, usually the pally.

One disappointing thing:

THERE IS NO REAL BONUS!!!

The scenario objectives list "surviving" and "defeating all the liches (bonus)". But completing the bonus objective doesn't actually get you a bonus. Just the standard early finish bonus. That's not a bonus in the sense used here. At least it doesn't square with the way the word is used in the objectives on all the other missions. Very disappointing to get 26 gold as a "bonus" for killing all three liches.

Yeah, that was worth it... considering how hard it is to kill all three compared to just digging in...

That was probably the biggest disappointment and to be honest, it feels like a bug. At the very least it shouldn't be called a bonus objective.
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Also, would it be possible to have a lesser bonus for defeating 1 or 2 of the lich lords? At the moment it's very binary - unless you defeat all 3 you get nothing.
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santi
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Post by santi »

beat it on hard on level 12(killed all liches): charged south, sent a GK northwest with 2 horsemen to grab the holy water and take out the northern lich(rd 11) and a Lancer to take the holy water south. This also was able to stop the
corpses, first dug himself in a village and corpses woul hit him and just die. Then they started ignoring him at which point he jumped in the fight and killed many of them. The easter lich dies by his spear on turn 12.
But, as already pointed out there there is no bonus and furthermore
the dialog at the end is out of context(the undead are retreating-there was only one skeleton left!)
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santi
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Post by santi »

Justto add: The bonus is not really necessary, as the next scenario is a
extremely easy. Butthe dialog should be changed if one has killed all liches, IMHO
nightcrawler
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Post by nightcrawler »

santi wrote: Butthe dialog should be changed if one has killed all liches, IMHO
Explain.
"Then I'd prefer you refer to it as 'The Midlands'"

If I'm supposed to fight creeping biggerism, then why is it a game feature?
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santi
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Post by santi »

If you killed all liches, there is for instance no sense in the dialog saying the undead are retreating. What undead are retreating? You've killed them all!
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Mist
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Post by Mist »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
medium 1.3.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9 when aiming to kill all three liches

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Poor. Still don't really know why where they withdrawing at the third day.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting trough WC train coming from the east to kill that lich, ultimately fell a turn short.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. To short to allow anything but brute force, impossible to complete optional goal if you take on wrong lich first.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Few more turns (15 would be more than enough) or less walking corpses.
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