Scenario 05b: Isles of the Damned

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BigMoney
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Post by BigMoney » January 24th, 2005, 6:36 pm

I've played only on normal. The scenario objectives were clear (kill one leader and survive, IIRC, or maybe kill both leaders), but the temples really threw me since there was nothing like them and didn't know what to expect, and being new I knew I could really use some holy weapons but didn't know how to get them based on what I had available.

I used the beginning footpad to check out the first temple and had 3 undead pop out and block him from retreating towards my castle. Yikes! I didn't touch the other temples that round, but I was able to take out the north guy with mermen and used a merman to keep stealing villages on the south isle. (So far I've been playing to out-resource my enemies, but I'm learning that unit strategy and picking battles is probably more important in BfW.)

The next round I just popped all three temples with the footpad to see what could happen but didn't recruit or try to finish. Again the first one (a different one) popped 3 undead. The 2nd was empty and the last had the mage. By this time the footpad and mage were in a swarm of undead and I started TRoW campaign for a change of pace. I assumed the order would always be 3 undead, then empty, then mage.

Having the bad guys say "we were hunting for mages" did help me think something good could come out, though.

At the time I concluded I probably needed to level up Konrad (hadn't been using him to fight) in the earlier scenarios and figured I'd restart the campaign later.

Notelrac
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Re: Scenario Review: Isles of the Damned

Post by Notelrac » May 5th, 2005, 6:12 pm

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Medium
Dave wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10, but I haven't played any of the later scenarios yet.
Dave wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I updated the wiki to make clear that Moremirmu will only join you if both enemy leaders are killed.
Dave wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The opening dialog sets the scene very well. However, Urlaf's offer of help and Konrad noticing the temples should be fleshed out.
Dave wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing both leaders in 24 turns is nigh impossible, given the terrain.
Dave wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
If you like a tactical puzzle where you have limited resources and no time to waste, a 10. If you don't, then go play Muff Malal's Peninsula.
Dave wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I'm not sure the scenario is winnable on Medium (or Hard) if you pop the temple with the bad guys before you are ready.

I had to use a completely different strategy to win this scenario. Usually, I disperse my units in order to secure villages and maintain a continuous zone of control and protect my rear. Doesn't work in this scenario. You'll run out of time. I found it impossible to kill the leaders without Moremirmu, and he moves too damn slow to waste time like that.

I won by sending Urlaf to the temples, and quitting/restarting from my first turn save until I found the one with Moremirmu. They headed towards the northern leader as fast as possible. If you have a choice between him killing an undead and moving another hex north, move north.

Meanwhile, the two mermen travelled northwest and south along the coast securing villages. Konrad recruited until the gold ran out, and then ran for the northern leader. Send two or three outlaws to take the villages in the center of the island, and park them. They will become "ghost magnets". With luck, it will take many turns before the ghosts from the south finish them off and head towards Konrad/Urlaf/Moremirmu.

The other units head northwest as well. The swarm of Walking Corpses looks intimidating, but as level 0 units, they die quickly and have no zone of control. They, and the Skeletons, have no mobility through the mountains. If you have leveled Konrad up, his leadership skill will allow Konrad/Urlaf/Moremirmu to kill the northern leader. Careful -- while the WCs are annoying speed bumps, the leader can kill Konrad in one turn!

Send Moremirmu south immediately, while Konrad recruits in the northern castle. Surround Moremirmu with wounded units for him to heal as he slogs though the mountains, jungle and swamps.

You may have time to pop the temple with the bad guys. Moremirmu can kill the level 2 revenant in one turn and he can certainly use the 16 experience points, but if you don't kill the second leader, you can't recall him in future scenarios.

I killed the second leader on turn 23 with this strategy.

CyberJack
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Re: Scenario Review: Isles of the Damned

Post by CyberJack » May 6th, 2005, 11:26 pm

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy.
Dave wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9, the first time. Now, about 6.
Dave wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
No problem.
Dave wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Perfectly OK.
Dave wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The very first time I played it was when I had only just discovered Wesnoth, and was playing through HttT as the first campaign (maybe the only campaign? this was on 0.7!). On that first attempt, I lost Konrad to a bunch of ghosts (and anyway my outlaws were getting wiped out by the other units :( ). It took about four attempts before I beat the scenario, and even then I didn't have much left at the end.

More recently, however, I started playing HttT again from the start under 0.8.11, and was surprised that it wasn't all that difficult after all. This time (no longer being a n00b), I relied largely on mermen, sending some along the north shore, some to the islands in the south east, and especially some to intercept the undead where they cross the water from the south-western island to the central island. Mermen are particularly useful against ghosts, as they have good resistance to cold. Of course, it helps that I now know the AI's weaknesses, and can lure it into sending units into traps, or to defend villages against a feint (e.g. two mermen hanging around off the north coast makes the AI really paranoid about defending the village in the NW corner, to the extent that the green team's skeletons turn back from crossing the mountains and cluster along the coast. :D )
Dave wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. It's OK. OTOH, until I tried it again under 0.8.11, I would always choose the land route, as that (in my experience) yielded more gold and XP.
Dave wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Ability to recruit Drakes :) Or a dragon sleeping in one of the temples; when woken, it may attack you, if you hang around near it, but it would really rather attack undead :)
"As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it" -- Antoine de-Saint Exupery.

Chris Byler
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Post by Chris Byler » May 8th, 2005, 9:28 pm

I didn't even realize until I looked at the WML that something special would happen if you killed both leaders. With such short time limits and high-move-cost terrain all over the place, plus the liches that have 60+ hp and drain more with their counterattacks than your level 1 units can do to them in the first place *and* kill another unit every turn with their magic... it seemed like killing both liches is a contingency so remote it's not really worth coding for except to make sure it doesn't crash the game.

Reaching and defeating *one* lich in the time limit seems like a hell of an accomplishment. On easiest (which, in Wesnoth, definitely does NOT mean easy). By the time you defeat the first one and have even a couple units ready to start moving on the second (not counting your wounded or any reinforcements you may need to recruit, those will take longer to get underway), you have maybe 6 turns left if you're lucky... The fact that you aren't allowed to recruit any unit that can effectively damage ghosts is really annoying, and sometimes dangerous. One ghostbuster (Moremirmu) isn't enough.

Since obviously other people have done this successfully... what am I missing?

CyberJack
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Post by CyberJack » May 9th, 2005, 9:54 pm

Chris Byler wrote:I didn't even realize until I looked at the WML that something special would happen if you killed both leaders. With such short time limits and high-move-cost terrain all over the place, plus the liches that have 60+ hp and drain more with their counterattacks than your level 1 units can do to them in the first place *and* kill another unit every turn with their magic...
Attack them in the daytime :)
Chris Byler wrote: it seemed like killing both liches is a contingency so remote it's not really worth coding for except to make sure it doesn't crash the game.

Reaching and defeating *one* lich in the time limit seems like a hell of an accomplishment. On easiest (which, in Wesnoth, definitely does NOT mean easy). By the time you defeat the first one and have even a couple units ready to start moving on the second (not counting your wounded or any reinforcements you may need to recruit, those will take longer to get underway), you have maybe 6 turns left if you're lucky...
Go for both in parallel :)
Chris Byler wrote:The fact that you aren't allowed to recruit any unit that can effectively damage ghosts is really annoying, and sometimes dangerous. One ghostbuster (Moremirmu) isn't enough.

Since obviously other people have done this successfully... what am I missing?
Mermen.

Just to make sure, I replayed this scenario yesterday, and killed both liches (the second one only on the very last turn though!), without help from Moremirmu (I only went to the temples right at the end, and Moremirmu's only job was to kill the bad guys in the other temple).

IMHO, the key is timing your battles. Let the outlaws fight at night, and the mermen during the day. Either group can kill a ghost or skeleton in no more than 2 turns, if you make sure you have a 3-to-1 advantage in numbers when you fight.

Some statistics:

Code: Select all

        [scenario]
                scenario="Isle of the Damned"
                [team]
                        damage_inflicted="955"
                        damage_taken="1125"
                        expected_damage_inflicted="97010"
                        expected_damage_taken="126800"
                        recall_cost="0"
                        recruit_cost="298"
                        [recruits]
                                Footpad="1"
                                Merman Fighter="10"
                                Poacher="1"
                                Thug="10"
                        [/recruits]
                        [recalls]
                        [/recalls]
                        [advances]
                                Merman Warrior="1"
                        [/advances]
                        [/advances]
                        [deaths]
                                Footpad="1"
                                Merman Fighter="8"
                                Thug="5"
                        [/deaths]
                        [killed]
                                Ghost="4"
                                Lich="2"
                                Skeleton="9"
                                Skeleton Archer="1"
                                Vampire Bat="5"
                                Walking Corpse="3"
                        [/killed]
                [/team]
        [/scenario]
I think I could have done better (certainly in terms of not losing quite as many mermen, and maybe finishing a couple of rounds earlier) if I'd sent a few more units after the southern lich rather than the northern one ...
"As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it" -- Antoine de-Saint Exupery.

DavidByron
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Great little game!

Post by DavidByron » July 10th, 2005, 7:46 am

1) Level = Normal
2) Difficulty = 1 or 10 depending on whether you try to fight
3) Clear victory conditions but completely unclear that you get a bonus from killing both leaders
4) Very good story line
5) It's a very hard level so you have to be very careful about resistances and day/night. In previous games that hasn't been a big issue. Also you don't know about the temples the first time you play.
6) 10 / 10
7)
It's fine the way it is as far as being fun (although perhaps add a couple of extra days because it takes a long time to switch from attacking one lich to the other) but because the alternative story line gives you better stuff and this one is so damn hard, I'd increase the reward for winning and decrease the danger or else there's no strategic reason to play this scenario in a campaign. By "winning" I mean winning the hard way of course - killing both Liches. The problem is the reward can't be something that will make the rest of the campaign too easy but has to be something people will really want.

Maybe winning this scenario lets you permanently recruit the various theif guys (not just recall them). Or allow Konrad to call upon their help for one scenario of his choice (this could be implemented with an item). Either would be a very cool reward while not making the rest of the campaign that much easier, and they make sense to the storyline. The wizard with the sword and the other level 2 guy are good (only if they survive) but you probably have other level 2 troops in your army, and probably could level at least 2 guys if you'd chosent the other route. Maybe have you keep the wizard even if only one Lich is killed.

Alternatively, or additionally, some extra cash. Extra cash shouldn't make much long term difference because of the 20% loss. Perhaps place a valuable item in the empty temple? You could change the amount of gold it is worth to balance out the luck factor in which temple comes up. Less gold if the revenant has not been uncovered yet and more if he has. The luck factor is a bit annoying, although not so much for me because I try to win using a pure merman strategy. If you were relying on the wizard to win then the order of the temples makes a lot of difference. You could find an item in the temple which you have to sell -- which in game turns simply means you don't get the extra cash until the next game. If you manage to win while turning up the revenant first the item turns out to be worth say 150 gold, otherwise only 50. You could also increase the amount of gold if both Liches are killed. Maybe the item turns out to be junk if you don't manage to even kill one Lich.

Also because it's so damn easy to win this game with a strategy of just sitting on the island, or running even further away, perhaps just eliminate the chance of "losing" altogether. If Konrad's about to get killed have the boat turn up just in time to rescue him. Otherwise it makes no sense (in a campaign) to risk everything on a very hard mission.

In a campaign where you are trying to run through each game without reloading and trying again your current choice is (1) go to the island but don't try to kill the liches - very safe, no reward (2) go to the peninsula and get usual chance to get experience and money for the usual risks (3) go to the island and try to kill the liches for (what ought to be) a better reward if you succeeed but it's very hard.

Making Konrad unkilllable (gets rescued if he's about to die) makes no difference if you are just reloading the game anyway. In a "hard core" campaign it would be one little extra benefit to the island route, and together with a cool reward I think it would make people try for the island even if logically the difficulty is prohibitive. And it is - it's really hard.

Had a problem posting. Sorry if this is a repost.

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drachefly
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Post by drachefly » July 11th, 2005, 7:29 pm

1: Normal, difficult
2: 9 to get the only kind of victory that makes the level worth playing
3: Moremirmu not sticking around if a lich remains is unclear.
4: good
5: getting my troops south in time. I move them into forest defensive positions for a day, fight for a day, go south for a day, don't want to attack during the night, then only get one daytime turn to kill the southern lich. Especially since the lich has DRAIN, it's very hard to get a kill. Also, the mermen use pierce, which almost all undead resist.
6: 10 except for the revenant ambush, that's just annoying.
7: two things:
First, make the Revenant Ambush/Moremirmu luck roll less extreme in some way. Perhaps if you get the ambush, then Moremirmu, he will stay if you defeat one lich. If you get Moremirmu first, then he will only stay if you defeat both.
This is kind of arbitrary-seeming, but perhaps it can be explained. Suppose that at the end, Moremirmu is staying to rescue a temple elder. If you got the ambush first, the temple elder is rescued.

Or maybe if you get the ambush, then Moremirmu pops out of whichever temple he was in (but you don't get to move him right away; then he could zap the revenant before it could move).

If you dont' like either of those, then I'll say DavidByron's idea of getting a monetary bonus in the third temple based on ambush status is also good.

Second, make the road to the southern castle less SLOW. You need to spend almost all your time just getting your ground troops there. If Trappers could go at full speed through swamp, that would really help (though that's a rather more far-reaching change).
OR
Extend the scenario by one turn. Yes, just ONE. That would give you two daylight turns at the end to beat up on the southern lich, instead of one.

Most annoying moment:
Enemy lich is at 6 HP, no other enemies. End of turn? "My liege, thank goodness we were able to rescue you in time!" It's like freaking Galahad in Castle Anthrax, but Zoot is a Lich. Okay, bad analogy.

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov » November 11th, 2005, 9:10 am

1) Difficulty played:
Medium only

2) Difficulty to finish:
6/10 - If you just aim to survive
11/10 - To kill Liches
Bear in mind that I play for minimum casualties, this makes many levels a hellava lot harder as I often restart a scenario at the loss of a single lvl1 unit. (And I do mean minimum casualties, I'm currently up to The Lost General level with just 14 losses total :))

3) Objective clarity:
Couldn't be better: fight for your life, or make the enemy fight for unlife (ok, sorry, that was lame)

4) Dialog:
Sufficiant, but no more.

5) Challenges:
Well...where to start?
a - keeping all units alive
b - safely extracting the white mage
I found the best way to survive was to form my troops, mostly Footpads, into a wedge formation on the shore near the starting castle (point of wedge facing west). Moremirmu did well in the center to provide healing. Also handy was to keep a mobile reserve of Thugs to rotate with heavily wounded Footpads and to shore up any developing trouble spots.
Killing both Liches was just too hard. I could finish off the northwest Lich with a comination of Moremirmu and Mermen, but I simply didn't have the turns/time to get sufficiant forces to the southwest Lich to be able to overrun his castle.

6) Fun:
8/10 - despite some frustration it was still fun. Challenging but with room for tactics and improvisation.

7) I managed to guess that I had to kill both Liches to keep Moremirmu (come on, a free magical lvl2 unit was too good to be true), but I can see how it would be unclear. Perhaps an explanation of this when you find him?
Also I think you should get Moremirmu if you kill just one Lich, as least on Medium difficulty.
Otherwise the level isn't really worth it because you don't get much gold and you can't train your 'core' army. Unless you are playing on easy, or can play with outrageous skill, or have paid heavy homage to the god of random numbers :P, then you're better of going for Muff Malal. (In my opinion anyway)

Gith
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Re: Scenario Review: Isles of the Damned

Post by Gith » January 18th, 2006, 12:10 am

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1) Medium.

2) To go for "the win" (both liches) 10.

3) Very.

4) Fine.

5) Unit movement is a pain. The turns really could do with being extended. Not enough cash.

6) This one sides on frustration more than fun - 4.

7) Increase the number of turns to stand at least a 50% chance of completing the scenario - endless restarts and reloads is not fun if you have a wasted couple of turns due to being bogged down by one amazingly resilient ghost.

A boost to starting funds/starting troops would be very useful.

I suggest that having killed 1 lich, you are awarded additional turns to try wipe the other out - perhaps being able to tell your rescue ship to wait X turns if one lich has been killed.

The loss of "Muff Malal's" for levelling oppertunities on recallable troops is painful. I would be strongly tempted to have this is a pure bonus mission that is followed by "Muff Malal's" rather than "Siege".

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drachefly
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Post by drachefly » March 29th, 2006, 5:34 pm

In 1.1.x, this is totally different. The ability to recall mermen made the level EXTREMELY EASY.
Just send Heldaga (the mer-warrior with the trident) down south, with another mer-warrior; and Oceania up north. Send one footpad to support against the northern lich; otherwise, recruit thugs.
Ideally, Oceania should have been fed XP in the previous level, perhaps levelling. (16 from the two guardian nagas + 24 from island boss)
If Oceania made Priestess, that northern lich is toast, crushed betweeen her and Moremirmu. Even if she didn't level, she really adds some oomph to the 'distraction' up north.

Down south, Heldaga will wipe out the ghosts in short order, which frees your force of thugs to cream the skeletons without interference from those ethereal buggers. Or you can just bypass the skeletons and head south directly, to provide Heldaga a little support in her frying the southern Lich. Who cares if the skeletons take your villages if you win two turns later?

Incidentally, this was all on the hard difficulty setting. And since it's basically a 'reset' level, that doesn't make it paradoxically easier than some easier difficulty level.

Reasonable ways to make it more difficult again:
1) put the trident in the peninsula level
(down side: can't use it against the island leader, which means you'll have a hard time even getting to this level)
1a) take away the trident on 'difficult' level
2) increase XP requirement on Mermaid initiate
3) tell the AI ghosts to stay away from the trident.
4) more dark adepts.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it. -- You-know-who
The Kingdom Of Loathing Era

jg
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by jg » April 1st, 2006, 3:50 pm

(1)Easy, Medium
(2)7-8
(3)Very
(4)Ok
(5)Killing the two liches(you don't have to, but I wanted to)
(6)6
(7) What about making the units (apart from mermen) loyal? They are there to fight for there own life. Not for pay, IMO.

Mille
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Post by Mille » May 25th, 2006, 10:08 am

First of all - Its one of the levels i like most. Mostly it is a really good setup, its a relative difficult level and most of all i liked the tempes:)

1) Difficulty played:
Easy, Medium

2) Difficulty to finish:

Depends on the tactic you choose (I would say this, when trying to get a minimum losses)

5/10 - Survive
6/10 - Survive with Merman staff rom a previous level
7/10 - Rescue the mage
8/10 - Rescue the mage and kill both players
10/10 - Kill the liches. I think this is really hard


3) Objective clarity:
Very clear.

4) Dialog:
Is ok. But i would improve it a bit to give the thieves more character. Perhaps they should get a more important role somewhere later on in the game, if you solve the "Bonus"-Level

5) Challenges:

In this level there are a lot of:

1) Minimum losses
2) Rescue the white mage
3) Get merman xps
4) kill both enemy leaders

6) Fun:
8/10 - In the beginning this level was extremely frustrating. Restarting for some times, but after this i understand much more regarding the wesnopth battle system. Dialogs during the gam would make it easier for most beginners so.
After that the level was much fun, because it gives a lot of tactical variations to play. I played the level at least three times, to try different tactics

7) Liches to kill should give a bonus.
The lv 2 mage is great as a temple bonus.
Plaing a lot of mermains from the previous campaign make the level a lot easier.:)
Add more dialogs to give some more deatiled information about advanced unit abilities:)

mstefek
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by mstefek » July 19th, 2006, 2:12 pm

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1) hard
2) 2 - for just surviving, 7- for killing both leaders
3) Ok
3) I expected more friendly units in the land, but there was only Delurin
4) Good one
5) Liches went into the sea themselves, so killing them was pretty easy. However, entering the temple before killing the second one was hard. I had to delay second Lich's death three turns. That's lame.
6) 5 - I can only see one solution, the land route seems too hard
7) Perhaps a dialog "You've killed both enemy leaders. We still have some time. Do you want to leave now, or maybe we should explore the temples?" would be nice.

Sly
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Re: Scenario Review: HttT - Isles of the Damned

Post by Sly » July 31st, 2006, 11:51 am

Dave wrote:(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Hard
2. 5
3. Very clear
4. There's not much lines ^_^
5. Not really much : the north Lich was a piece of cake for my Mermaid Priestess and my Merman Warior with the Trident, just eliminated some undeads while waiting for daylight, then they rushed for the second lich and it was the same.
During this, Konrad hired a Footpad each turn, for a footpad in forest is extremely hard to hit and they have ranged as well as melee and they do impact damage and most of all : they move very quickly :D
They wiped ghosts and skeletons that ventured in the forest and then they opened the temples, it was also a piece of cake 8)
6. 7 still fun, and I love Moremirmu :wink:
7. I think this level has the same difficulty in Normal than in Hard :( . I expected a bit more :twisted:

scott
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Post by scott » July 31st, 2006, 12:13 pm

The only difference from NORMAL is a higher attack depth and the fog. It was about as hard as I cared to make the scenario this early in the campaign, even on HARD. Two ideas I had were to bump up the aggression on hard, since losses are more important to avoid in this scenario, and to remove your merman recalls and make you play it old-school. Everybody loves the priestess.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.

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