Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

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AThousandYoung
Posts: 87
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 2:54 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by AThousandYoung » April 29th, 2009, 8:18 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.4.7, medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3 to pass it. 8 to kill the leaders for the bonus.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Pretty clear. I wasn't confused. 8

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It was pretty clear, and I enjoyed the challenging conversation in which Konrad shows some initiative and political savvy ("You recognize my claim to the throne, then?") 8

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting to the top left two leaders and killing them without going over the kill limit.
I had no problems killing the 25 units, but I wanted the bonus. It took some time to figure out a method to do so. I decided to fight their Knights and Lancers with the same sort of units that defeated them in the real world - Horse Archers! Elven Scouts are cheaper than recalls, though not much, which means you don't lose much when they get lanced, and they are the only units faster than the enemy that you have access to. In addition they have a ranged piercing attack which lets them defend against the infantry and swarm and kill the enemy cavalry. 300+ Gold makes a solid Horde. At first I thought it would be even better when they have a mounted healer (Paladin) and some 2nd Level upgraded Scouts...and 2 Silver Mages, and a Griffon or two to hover over the lake and grab the villages around it whenever they get taken by the enemy. However, because I generally hate losing my most valuable troops, and it seems that it's impossible to keep specific units alive, except those hanging out with Konrad, I ended up leaving most Recalls on the list. To start, when I won, I recruited one Griffon Rider to control the towns around the lake, and the rest Elvish Scouts and their upgrades. Anything you Recall, you need to be ready to lose.

I rushed the guy right below me and killed him the first night. I killed any units nearby giving me 5 or 6 Clan kills by this time. All those Move 6 main characters stayed as long as possible at this castle in the center east. Eventually, once I approached the kill limit and enemies were advancing on Konrad and friends, he had to flee to the top right corner.

After I cleared out the first Clan and it's leader, I sent my Horde of Scouts southwestt. From there they go west along the bottom of the screen, avoiding combat, until they reach the bottom left enemy. If they meet Bowmen, they use their superior speed to avoid combat, but they kill enemy Knights and Lancers when necessary...After my forces killed the bottom left Grand Knight I planned to go north with the Horde and kill the other two. This was very difficult. I found that after killing this second Grand Knight that the last two GK's were too well guarded to just rush through and assassinate them, so I had to use up my last quota of kills to slay everything near the western edge of the map as I worked my way to the enemies. A Silver Mage finally contributed to the last boss kill. I found I restarted this level so much that I began saving turns just to avoid having to do the same plan again and again just to try something new against the third leader.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
A fascinating strategic challenge. 8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Triggered events always make scenarios better if do

dELFador
Posts: 32
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 4:40 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by dELFador » May 24th, 2009, 1:58 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium. 1.7
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9.7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
very clear & interesting.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
killing the bosses before the 35 limit.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
none.

My strategy was to have gryphon riders go village grabbing to the north, while My elf shyde and elites took out the closest leader. once I gained his keep, I sent my shyde and elites (mostly dwarves for this scenario)
to the hills nearby, and recruited 15 dwarf guardsmen. and recall a sentinel. by the end, I lost my 6 gryphons, 13 guardsmen, but my key people, elites, and shyde were safe and I got 2 stalwarts and 2 steelclads less than 20 exp away from leveling.

EZE
Posts: 17
Joined: March 21st, 2009, 4:10 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by EZE » June 11th, 2009, 8:22 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.4.7 Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2, since it only required a body count to win.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objectives were not clear. I didn't realize that the scenario would end as soon as 25 kills were reached, denying me the bonus (able to recall all the lords? haven't finished the campaign yet)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I would say between above average and superior.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Not getting my good units killed. I will try for the bonus some other time.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
2, it is painful to watch my good troops die.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Perhaps a warning from a support character warning against the danger of enemy lances would be a good reminder to players.

BigCheese
Posts: 27
Joined: August 20th, 2009, 7:05 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by BigCheese » September 4th, 2009, 8:59 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.7.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3 - to reach the kill limit
10 - to defeat all 4 grand knights before reaching the kill limit

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Perhaps I missed something, but why did the Konrad/Li'sar come here in the first place? Are the horselords blocking the road to Weldyn? Away from that I liked the conversations;

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
My brilliant plan was to use griffons to capture a village near an enemy castle, then bring in silver mages to bomob the grandknight down. This perfect plan had one little flaw: it didn't work! But since it is an optinonal objective I didn't really care

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7 - no grinding; only kill or get killed

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
none
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t0mppa
Posts: 2
Joined: September 1st, 2009, 11:41 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by t0mppa » September 8th, 2009, 4:52 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.7.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1, to reach the kill limit and 6, to defeat all leaders before reaching the kill limit.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Very clear, a little foolish of Konrad to challenge the enemy leader to personal combat though, since his character is much weaker than the grand knight.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing the leaders before the quota ran out.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9, required quite a bit of planning to get the 4 leaders killed before running out of the quota, plus keeping all my troops alive.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Not sure if it's scenario related, but the AI could use some boosting. I had units on either side of the mass of enemy bowmen and they kept going one way one turn and the other way the next turn, so they ended up running in circles without reaching any of my units for some time. And also Li'sar with Void Armor and Scepter of Fire could single handedly defeat the level, since the enemy doesn't engage her - understandable in a way since she's a walking guillotine with the high resistances, high defense on everywhere but water/sand and nasty attacks, but at least they'd slow her down.
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bladescape
Posts: 3
Joined: October 5th, 2009, 4:56 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by bladescape » October 8th, 2009, 5:32 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
A:1.4.5
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
A:7
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
A:Clear enough.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
A:Dialog not bad,but getting the bonus by zapping silver mages around the map didn't fit in.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
A:Damn Horsemen! :evil:
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
A:4-6 :D
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
A:A more direct objective i.e.:have to kill the leaders with Li'sar or Konrad.

evoke
Posts: 2
Joined: October 31st, 2009, 4:22 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by evoke » November 5th, 2009, 2:25 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.6.5, medium


(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1-3 (easy) merely to rapidly slaughter 25.
4-5 (relatively easy but rather tedious) to kill the leaders for the bonus.

noting I wouldn't rate any scenario in the campaign above a 5 on difficulty,
and that I am a min-max 'Spike'-pyschotype player.


(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Both lucid and extremely misdirecting.

Lucid in the sense that the basic kill 25 objective is quite clear.
And the 4-leader kill was clear on concept, after a fashion.

Extremely misdirecting in that said proper tactics for safely/easily non-save passing
while killing the leaders for the bonus seemingly requires a very sharp out-of-character
strategic shift from typical Wesnoth play, and modest violations of roleplay realism,
in the lengthy multi-round baiting of AI minions to the lake as a sinkhole magnet.


(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Adequate to engaging, and the element of wit was much appreciated.

I would, however, persuade for a dialogue revision to the section concerning the
knights declaring 'to the death', as this is in cognitive-dissonance juxtaposition to the
subsequently manifestly not-to-the-death nature of offering service upon defeat.


(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

A) The sheer tedious 15+ turn grind of non-combatively baiting the AI pathing to channel
and retain all the non horsemen opponents to the lake area.

B) The painfully awkward inherent positional clumsiness of the southward kill
having the insta-kill threat AI leader at range 7, and the heroes at mobility range 6.
That south will be immediately overrun is never in remote doubt, and the threat range
merely makes for awkwardness, rather than challenge.

C) The sheer unpredictable AI pathing, that exhibits schizoid tendencies to reposition
units in inexplicable directional reversal ways, making shepherding them around with
bait units a good deal more laborious and time-consuming than it otherwise might be.



(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

The general grind, a 2. Apologies, and I see the intent you desired, but ouch.

The sheer novelty, a 7, making for a very odd split.

It both imparted a sense of close-but-incomplete design (perhaps more accurately of an attempt to push
the AI abilities too far / bend them to your desires) and yet a strongly interesting novelty/creativity
at the same time.

I would keep it in the campaign, but the grind could use refining,
ideally by adaption to an improved core AI, which I realize is partly out-of-scope
and yet the apparent best prescription for the most beneficial fix/enhancement.


(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

A similar effect might have been quite achievable via forests requiring stealthed rangers
to slip past the AI to achieve a leader kill, ideally, imho, with the rangers then capturing
a village deep in enemy backfield and reinforcement silver mage/mages teleporting in to
achieve a backfield strike unit to secure the leader kill(s). This obviously significantly
redesigns the level, but such a setup would avoid the bizarre AI-exploitation baiting of
forces out of position for the typical leader kill pathway.

The AI could then more realistically/straightforwardly marshall clustered forces extremely
difficult to avoid 25-killing, you would not need the somewhat cheap deep-water lake as
a champ magnet/trap, and the split objectives 25 vs leader kills is retained.

The largest problematic to such a scenario is inadequate prep of forest-stealth rangers
before-hand, but that is the player's dominion, having had a dozen plus boards to level up
an adequate variety/flexibility of troops. The average player should have a ranger or two
and a silver mage or two by that point, or the ability to kill some AI opponents to create such.

* * * *

On the whole a likable board.
Though I think you might have achieve similar effects/setup by a different layout,
and thus preserved the creativity while reducing the grind. But kudos, nonetheless,
and backseat driving / air-chair critique is forever cheap. Keep making scenarios!

* * *

misc: straightforward tactics for the existing board without needing to reload / save / rng finesse.

I summon 3 unlevelled griffins, a mer, and 2 levelled mobile escorts and send my non-konrad heroes
with escort immediately south to slaughter the south leader. The position squares work out such
that the escorted-heroes max-move and typically slaughter two of the three enemy summons
in very naturally movement/unfolding, and the third enemy minion typically elects to (bizarrely)
then secure a village. The mer heads NW to the lake, the griffins west.

The south leader falls very fast/early using this aggressive approach, you'll need some positional
finesse to avoid insta threat, but it is quite doable, with good non-save ethics, if you're careful.
Rng luck determines whether/how many escorts you lose shielding the heros from instakill thereinl;
the south leader virtually always makes things easier by moving out to atk an escort.

I summon another 6 griffins on the 2nd summon batch, and send the 9 griffins west (the leading
3 less leveled/quick than the later), and these 9 are sufficient to kill the west-lake knight
with extra griffins position hedging / preserving good lines of subsequent escape, and for enticing
bowman / mounted minions away from leader. A few griffins should be expected to be lost;
the leader will be dead by round 9/10. Use the water/river to good positional finesse.
A reasonable grasp of AI positioning tendancy obviously helps here a good bit. (For the inexperienced
player, this is the one place you might reload, not to rng manipulate, but simply to study and
understand how the AI reasons in a complex multi-piece, terrain partial-barrier setup.)

On the third summoning round I summon 5 lancers/outriders to go SW, and another mer to go NW to lake.
The heavy units go SW killing a few AI and village securing, with the heroes linking up with them
later after the very fast south kill. These force then simply roll SW killing all AI in the way
and the SW leader. (The griffins after killing the west-lake leader shift to luring enemies to the
mers in the lake.)

In a nutshell, you can lure enough enemies that the lancers from the SW kill can wind their way N and kill
the final NW leader. The luring, true, can be somewhat tedious and require a several sustained rounds of
patience. Pretty straightforward conceptually though.

4th summoning round I recall a mer initiate to heal the 2 merman baiting AI in the lake (you could sub a slyph
if you lost the initiate from prior scenario), and anyone who needs some leveling and let them skirmish/lure
late-game, generally focusing on any stray unit that needs critical leveling pre-endgame next scenario.
Konrad post summon secures villages to the N, hangs out there a few rounds, then runs away south
on a slow loop to nowhere, staying out of trouble.

Generally, I kill:
A) Only horseman/lancers, anywhere on the board as opportunity luring presents, even the lake,
as the AI roams them schizoid like, and you might as well.
B) Anything, of any type, in the brisk SW push, the one exception where I will kill bowman.
Which generally results in a kill count of 20-23.

Put another way, killing the south (w. heroes plus light escort) and west-lake (w. griffin push) leaders quickly
allows for streamrolling the SW leader without worrying about hitting kill cap. Then positional bait, and swing
SW uints up to the NW leader.

800-950 gold hauled and the 4 leaders is typical in the 3 times I've gone through it so far.
Which sets one up quite excessively for the subsequent campaign finish.

-evoke

edited: for spelling/grammar fixes.

Cornuthaum
Posts: 13
Joined: February 16th, 2010, 9:34 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Cornuthaum » February 18th, 2010, 5:49 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.6.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 if you go for the 25 kills, 11^11 if you aim to kill all five leaders.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Holy mother of bacon, that was unexpected. But woo, go Konrad/Li'Sar, the pairing out of nowhere!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing all five leaders. This mission was the first time I sacrificed levelled units on purpose - my gryphon masters died valiantly to bring down first the western central (pink) and then the northwestern leader (blue). But they did it... and they shall be avenged.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 - Incredibly challenging side objective on an otherwise easy mission, plus a nice, player-friendly map. I totally like it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
A second river somewhere in the map to break up the otherwise near-constant battle.

xachangea
Posts: 3
Joined: March 10th, 2010, 10:08 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by xachangea » March 10th, 2010, 10:16 am

I don't know if you fixed this sort of "bug" already, but there is a problem with this scenario.

I would try to describe it as simply as possible. Your objectives include defeating 25 members of the clan and as secondary you can defeat all four knights.

The problem is that once you reach to 25 you cannot continue playing even if you want to achieve the goal of defeating all knights. And it's almost impossible not to reach to 25 BEFORE you get to kill all 4 knights. This is simply because even if you don't want to confront the lesser characters, they will attack you and eventually die, before you get to the 4 knights base.

I think you should add the option to keep on playing the scenario once you reach the goal (because 4 knights are really handy for the last mission). Or at least make it 50, which would allow you to get to the four of them.

Cheers.

wtf_is_this
Posts: 55
Joined: March 24th, 2010, 7:01 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by wtf_is_this » March 24th, 2010, 7:15 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
The average(normal or whatever it is)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7maybe8
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It cant be better,but its hard really

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

The best
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
i had a lot ofmoney,so no problems at all.(Too many characters must be kept alive)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
no idea at all

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Sam-Lloyd
Posts: 12
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by Sam-Lloyd » June 10th, 2010, 12:22 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging 1.8.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
10 (among the hardest of the campaign)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I like the part where Konrad challenges Lord Bayar

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I lost 2 Dwarvish Lords, 1 Silver Mage, 1 Paladin. Maybe next time I can reduce the loss

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, this scenario opens my eyes about lancers. I underestimated them before.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing particular
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BubbleScreen
Posts: 43
Joined: January 24th, 2010, 6:19 pm

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by BubbleScreen » July 16th, 2010, 2:15 am

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario?
6 - The 25 is not the problem. The trick is keeping your heavy hitters protected from the rampaging lancers. I haven't even tried to kill all the Grand Knights without crossing 25. I suppose if I had more than 2 Gryphon Masters and 2 Silver Mages, it would be easier.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not transparent enough - you really should spell out that we are not killing the Grand Knights, but capturing them for use in the final battle.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fun, but it's like "to the death," but then "to the capturing so we will serve you," which is silly.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Building ZoC fences with Scouts to protect my main army. Diverting half the AI forces towards the Gryphons who were hanging out at the lake. Baiting enemies with sacrificial Scouts.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is?
10 - epic battle with lots of different stuff to try out, plus hard side objectives.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
A little more hills and forest if a player wanted to make more use of Dwarves/Elves/ the long forgotten Merfolk, maybe more water for Gryphons to sneak around in. Or a bunch of forest for trying an assassination with Rangers/Avengers.

roman_sharp
Posts: 22
Joined: July 11th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Scenario Review: (HTTT) Test of the Clans

Post by roman_sharp » July 21st, 2010, 12:06 pm

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Normal, 1.8.3

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6, challenging

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

It was somewhat hard to don't lose many units.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None.

KingsIndian
Posts: 11
Joined: June 6th, 2010, 12:14 am

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by KingsIndian » October 12th, 2010, 6:40 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5, but I only defeated one Grand Knight, and I lost a couple of good units. I easily managed the final scenario with what I had left, though.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear. It makes a nice difference from 'Defeat enemy leaders' too.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It wasn't bad, but it didn't really seem to fit well into the storyline of the campaign. It didn't work too well as a 'test' either: as someone else said, a scenario like EI's 'Duel' might have worked better. Still, it works as an explanation for the ability to recruit Knights in the final scenario.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Lancers. I lost a couple of good units to them. I also had to reload once when one attacked Konrad and all three strikes hit.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. It's a good scenario that's fun to play, but losing units to Lancers is a bit frustrating.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It had a 'pwn stuff' feel to it that was more befitting of a final scenario. As the final scenario of a different campaign (with small modifications to suit this), I think it would work very well, but here, it just feels out of place.

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GagarinGambit
Posts: 51
Joined: February 2nd, 2011, 12:36 pm

Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by GagarinGambit » February 21st, 2011, 12:48 pm

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Hard 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 (defeat 50 units), 10 (defeat all leaders). The first object is not difficult, but the difficulty lies in protecting your most valued units from the lancer charges.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear enough

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This fight doesn't make much sense in the first place, but other than this the dialogue is significantly better than most HttT scenarios.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Minimising unit loses; killing the leaders before scoring 50 kills.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. In spite of being a huge map full of flatland (which I rarely enjoy), I like it because of the concept, the enemies involved and the decent challenge.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think it's fine the way it is.
Linux. Space technology.

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