HTTT-Underground Channels Development

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zookeeper
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by zookeeper »

Pewskeepski wrote:That reminds me, what's the deal with Cliffs of Thoria? Is it finished? Or does it need some working on?
No, it's not finished; it needs at least better balancing, and probably some other minor changes too.

That branch of the campaign is likely to get disabled or removed before 1.10 unless someone finally fixes it before that.

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Pewskeepski
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Pewskeepski »

I could develop it (Cliffs of Thoria). I'm not doing anything with WML, and I won't be until TFoW's storyline is done. Is it alright if I do this?

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Sapient
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Sapient »

Any update on this?
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Pewskeepski »

I'll just go ahead and post my ideas.

I was looking into it, and I think the problem with Cliffs of Thoria is simple - drakes can be killed very quickly. And since they mostly come at you one at a time, they can be slaughtered with just 1-3 mermen.

Here's a list of ideas.
  • 1.Random drakes are placed around the map before the scenarios starts.
  • 2.The drake leader is moved father east and is given a camp for recruiting.
  • 3.Konrad's camp is made smaller so a huge army can't be made very quick.
I'm thinking that at least one of those should be added, or maybe two? I'd like to also make the drakes spawn out of tents quicker.

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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Sapient »

Pewskeepski wrote: I'd like to also make the drakes spawn out of tents quicker.
How much quicker? Can you give a specific algorithm?

It would be best if you modify the WML files from trunk and post it here so that other players can test it. If you need help with the WML, let me know or post in WML Workshop. Thanks.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Pewskeepski »

I was looking into it, and I noticed that the drakes' ai is set to guardian. I turned this off, and it was still too easy, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

I also made them come out faster by having a level one come out every other time. You can test it with the file below. I attached Shadowblack's replay (in which the difficulty is set to normal) so nobody has to play the entire campaign.

Some other changes I made were...
  • 1.The time spent waiting for Ken has been cut in half.
  • 2.On easy, Warven has the intelligent trait instead of the fearless trait
  • 3.When they debate whether or not they should save Warven, only Li'sar says "Fair enough."
I'd like to have the dialog where Li'sar talks about her childhood. It's in the other two branches, so I think it should be in this one.
Attachments
HttT-The_Cliffs_of_Thoria.gz
Shadowblack's saved game.
(30.64 KiB) Downloaded 446 times
19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg
The scenario file.
(34.95 KiB) Downloaded 383 times

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boru
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by boru »

Just some general impressions which will hopefully be helpful.

I'm not sure why there are 25 villages on the map. Cutting this down will make it a bit more difficult. Also, the tents on top of the villages just look odd.

Since the flying drakes are vulnerable to pierce, they'll be at a disadvantage on a water based map, especially when the player has a large contingent of loyal merfolk at his disposal. So it might be good to include a few of the non-flying drakes, maybe even an Enforcer or a Warden. Just set their movement to 0 so they stay on the mountains.

Keh Ohn doesn't have to fly all the way from his base at the beginning, just move his starting coordinates to a hex or two inside the fog, then move him from there.
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Pewskeepski
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Pewskeepski »

boru wrote:I'm not sure why there are 25 villages on the map. Cutting this down will make it a bit more difficult. Also, the tents on top of the villages just look odd.
Good points. I ditched 10 of the water villages and got rid of the red tents.
boru wrote:Since the flying drakes are vulnerable to pierce, they'll be at a disadvantage on a water based map, especially when the player has a large contingent of loyal merfolk at his disposal. So it might be good to include a few of the non-flying drakes, maybe even an Enforcer or a Warden. Just set their movement to 0 so they stay on the mountains.
I placed a non-flying drake next to every drake village and made the not attack you if you're in water. However, I have it set so they shouldn't step in forded water, but they do. Any idea why?
boru wrote:Keh Ohn doesn't have to fly all the way from his base at the beginning, just move his starting coordinates to a hex or two inside the fog, then move him from there.
Yeah, but it doesn't make any difference how far away he is due to the fog.

Other changes include:
  • 1.Any unit can activate victory by stepping in the cave.
  • 2.Your keep is smaller.
Since the map and the util files have changed, you have to replace them with the two attachments below in addition to the scenario file.
Attachments
HttT-The_Cliffs_of_Thoria.gz
The saved game.
(30.64 KiB) Downloaded 414 times
httt_utils.cfg
The updated util file.
(46.91 KiB) Downloaded 429 times
19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.map
The improved map.
(18.7 KiB) Downloaded 422 times
19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg
The scenario file.
(35.41 KiB) Downloaded 484 times

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Reepurr
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Reepurr »

Hewwo. :)

I was hoping to actually bring the forums a version of Underground Channels which worked, but I did something, then forgot what it was, then realised I'd broken the game with it. If anyone can weed out the bug, I'd appreciate it.

As an aside, what I've done so far is:
• Allow the player to 'decline' the Wose reward, nabbing the Lich's pet spider instead. (If a majority votes in one of the other reward ideas, then I'll pop that in instead.)
• Prevent the Woses from appearing until you choose to, by moving a unit to the isolated village surrounded by trees (hence the new map).
• Prevent the Saurians from appearing until you follow the one that ran past you on turn 2, stopping them from being annihilated by the Undead.
• Buff up the Skeletal Dragon and make it have multiple lives, re-dying for the last time after you defeat it enough times.

And what I'm planning on doing...
• Give the player a reward for killing the Dragon - say, you can summon the Skeletal Dragon itself once, just once.
• Fix it :P
• Make the turn limit a tad "closer to the wire" if you want to gather both of the rewards.
20b_Underground_Channels.map
(26.29 KiB) Downloaded 417 times
20b_Underground_Channels.cfg
(18.88 KiB) Downloaded 448 times
@ Cliffs of Thoria:
Pewskeepski wrote:I was looking into it, and I think the problem with Cliffs of Thoria is simple - drakes can be killed very quickly. And since they mostly come at you one at a time, they can be slaughtered with just 1-3 mermen.
*cough* wut *cough*

My experiences:
I spent most of CoT getting swarmed by around a dozen drakes. They were pretty happily picking off my Tritons at a rate of one a turn, and since I only had two (my Storm Trident-wielding ones, ironically), they didn't have a chance. Konrad with da sceptre practically got creamed the first turn he stepped on the water, and by turn 11 I'd lost almost all my mermen and just went into debug mode to finish the scenario.

I'm not that bad, am I?
"What do you mean, "a dwarvish dragonguard with marksman is overpowered"?"

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Played HttT-Underground Channels? Thought it was rubbish? Help us develop it here!

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Sapient
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Sapient »

Reepurr wrote: • Buff up the Skeletal Dragon and make it have multiple lives, re-dying for the last time after you defeat it enough times.
It would be better if you did this without violating the game mechanics... i.e., give the dragon some starting experience so that it will get a full heal AMLA before it can be killed the first time. Otherwise this will just cause too much frustration and confusion for the player.

I had some realism concerns about the following items:
Reepurr wrote: • Allow the player to 'decline' the Wose reward, nabbing the Lich's pet spider instead. (If a majority votes in one of the other reward ideas, then I'll pop that in instead.)
• Give the player a reward for killing the Dragon - say, you can summon the Skeletal Dragon itself once, just once.
As for the spider: maybe the lich has a good reason why such a creature obeys him, but I doubt it will be impressed by Konrad's heroics and join him just because he turned down the woses.

As for summoning the skeletal dragon: while that is certainly a cool idea for an ability, it just seems a bit too aewsome. I mean, technically that would be necromancy. Konrad summoning a bone dragon (or any dragon, for that matter) could have potentially huge lore implications.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Pewskeepski
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Pewskeepski »

Reepurr wrote:*cough* wut *cough*
Drakes have very low defense against mermen spears, which are the core weapons of the player's army. Of course, this is balanced out by the fact that mermen don't have thick armor and take a lot of damage to the drake's massive blades.
Reepurr wrote:My experiences:
I spent most of CoT getting swarmed by around a dozen drakes. They were pretty happily picking off my Tritons at a rate of one a turn, and since I only had two (my Storm Trident-wielding ones, ironically), they didn't have a chance. Konrad with da sceptre practically got creamed the first turn he stepped on the water, and by turn 11 I'd lost almost all my mermen and just went into debug mode to finish the scenario.

I'm not that bad, am I?
Are you playing the default version or mine? On the hardest difficulty? I have only tested it out on the normal difficulty level so I'm not sure how balanced this is on Easy and Challenging. Besides that, it's been a long while since I've touch this scenario :P

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Reepurr
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Reepurr »

Pewskeepski wrote:Are you playing the default version or mine? On the hardest difficulty? I have only tested it out on the normal difficulty level so I'm not sure how balanced this is on Easy and Challenging. Besides that, it's been a long while since I've touch this scenario :P
Default on Easy. That's why I was surprised you were actually making it harder.
I really should try CoT again...

@ Sapient: The idea is that the dragon basically feels unkillable, like you're gonna have to get a really, really big sledgehammer and hit it (or your computer) lots of times to make it go away. Also, Wossname in Delfador's Memoirs did the same thing.

The spider is basically the Ancient Lich's pet who happens to be warm, fuzzy, and able to take to just about anything. The lich could have been waiting for the spider to die so he could alter himself some more into a SPIDER LICH!!!...yeah.

As for the skeletal dragon summoning, you have a point there. It would be nice to have the skeletal dragon as something other than a giant, level 5, XP feed, but I can't think of anything other than assorted forms of necromancy you could get from it...
"What do you mean, "a dwarvish dragonguard with marksman is overpowered"?"

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Played HttT-Underground Channels? Thought it was rubbish? Help us develop it here!

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taptap
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by taptap »

Cliffs of Thoria is broken. I wrote about that already in the feedback. On challenging there wasn't much or any drake spawning at all, after dispatching the sea monsters you can get massive free XP on the silly draugs. (They attack when you move next to them, but after respawning they don't attack units that already are next to them. Even if they would attack, this wouldn't change the dynamic in principle as you would then just kill one and then slow the next one.) If you kill them with the rate of 2-3 per turn as I did you will have a huge partly loyal L3 mermen army, all gryphons levelled and Warven near L4. I would remove the undead completely (or make them a genuine party of the scenario instead), remove part of the swamp, and fix the non-recruitment issue of the drakes. Without fixing Cliffs of Thoria there is no need to worry about Underground Channels. (The big money bonus from UC isn't of much help as the next scenario is easily won with minimum gold but hasn't much villages to carry the advantage on and by Test of the Clans it is pretty much eliminated already imo.) The main problem is in Cliffs of Thoria (played it on 1.9.11 I believe and challenging).
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Reepurr
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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by Reepurr »

@taptap: Most of that doesn't really apply to me, it being CoT feedback and all, but I noticed you commented on a big money bonus from Underground Channels?

Is the turn limit far too long or did you just bypass the "kill the lich" bit?
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Played HttT-Underground Channels? Thought it was rubbish? Help us develop it here!

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Re: HTTT-Underground Channels Development

Post by taptap »

I meant the big money bonus is big but doesn't really matter because at most 40%*40% will be carried over to a scenario where it matters = Testing the Clans. Recruiting much in the next scenario will just reduce what you can carry over. Another point is that you can't fix Underground Channels without fixing Cliffs of Thoria (removing undead, make Drakes putting up a little fight) first. It makes a big difference whether you arrive with an all L3, half loyal merfolk army or not so any balancing done in Underground Channels will be in vane unless Cliffs of Thoria is fixed.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

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