Northern Rebirth

[thespaceinvader]

I know. The way i play this level is to get a foothold inside the fortress, move Krash (or Gryphon, or Abhai, but usually Krash) to within one turn's movement of the target spot, wait until the way to said spot is clear, then move straight for it.

[Taurus]

I think having access to the level 3 Chaotic units is A Good Thing - otherwise the outlaw types become an even less attractive choice compared to Dwarves than they already are.

Very well founded and thought out feedback Truper - thanks. I am aiming for every unit that you recruit to be very usefull for this campaign. I do want to retain flexability so there is more then one way to beat this campaign, but I don't want useless units cluttering up the recruit list.

Dwarves are essential, but they have one weekness after Clearing the Mines - their numbers are limited. For maps that need a large number of troops - such as the Persuit, Old Friend (if you sally that is), the new version of Eastern Flank and Showdown - you simply do not have enough dwarves. For underground scenarios the only logical choice is thugs, poachers and footpads and good - that's what they are there for. Also note that in the undeground scenarios - all the recruitable units by the AI (except the trolls in infested caves) are level 1 units. With conventional 2 level max outlaws, combined with dwarves they are pretty much balanced.

However when you get into the later scenarios when the units coming of the production line are mixed with level 2's, you are going to want something that can pack a bit more punch then Bandits - and hence the loyalist units which can upgrade into something a more powerfull. If I keep level 3 outlaws on the other hand then then their niche will kind of be thrown away.

Also, I don't want this campaign to be another Liberty. Liberty is a great campagin and the mood is that of having a big band of outlaws. Units that have to hide during the day for fear of the Wesnoth army and come out at night and wreak havoc. The atmosphere that I wanted to create in Northern Rebirth is that of a gradually building power. In the end you shouldn't have a large pack of rebels and outlaws, but a honned powerful police force. Something that can impose law and order, set laws and restore sanity to the northlands. Dwarves and loyalists are good for this, but outlaws don't really fit the mold.

And for the reccord I have a rather powerfull loyalist force. I still go heavy on the dwarves - 8 dwarvish lords, 2 steel clads, 2 Dragonguards and 2 thundergaurds - but I do have 5 Royal Guards, 1 Swordsman, 5 Master Bowmen, and 5 longbowman. My choaotic force sonsists of 4 bandits, 4 outlaws and 3 trappers. Oh, and I am currently at Get the Gold btw.

So yes, it is possible to get a loyalist force going for the final showdown, and I like that. My concern is that it will no longer be necessary with the level 3 outlaws included.

[Angry Andersen]

I had TONS of dwarves when I played Northern Rebirth (in the stable version), even though lvl3 outlaws were allowed.

If outlaws are limited to lvl2, I guess this ratio would get even more extreme. As far as I see it, the problem is not that lvl3 outlaws would outcompete dwarves and loyalists, but that dwarves outcompete the two other groups in most scenarios.

My suggestion:
- Allow lvl3 outlaws
- Make ALL lvl0 units recruited in the first scenario loyal

This would give a real reward for the hard work with those wimps, and after all, it is their cause you are fighting for! They are slaves, freeing themselves, and all of a sudden they demand a salary for fighting for their own freedom

[thespaceinvader]

More loyal units in general would be good, actually. I'd like it if any unit that the player didn't recruit (stalrag, the elvish druid and sorceress, krash, the white mages, camerin etc etc etc were loyal. This is a campaign which, player right, will give you a built in money drain of 20 to 30 GP per turn if you play it well and get all the (VERY useful in some cases) auto-recalled units. It would be nice not to have to pay for them.

[thespaceinvader]

For the final scenario, i think it would be very beneficial to have Hamel's forces be player controlled like all the others - it's vewry irritating to watch the AI fight a battle with incredibly poor tactics which i could fight MUCH more effectively.

[Truper]

Yes, but the only thing providing any tension in The Showdown is: will the Orcs kill Hamel before the player can kill their leaders? If the player controlled the Dwarves, with all the gold the player has, despite the incredible numbers of Orcs, victory would be assured.

[thespaceinvader]

MM, fair. Though Hamel shouldn't be defeatable if he plays a decent defence, with the units which are available to him.It's only because he uses pants tactics in thge first place that this tension exists, which i think makes it very artificial. It almost tempts me to use the debugger to take control of each of his units as he creates it and move it properly... If real tension were necessary, give him only level 1 units, or a vanguard made up of injured units (he's supposed to have wiped out an army on the way in after all), or give him a smaller keep than anyone else - he's setting up in a hurry.

[Taurus]

I already made all the units that join you loyal - pending next commit. About Hamel - I'll keep him in mind. The biggest problem I had in the begining was him not recruiting anything at all - so at least that is fixed.

About level 3 outlaws - I think you all just may have convinced me to leave them in there.

[Jozrael]

Is it possible to beat Nightmare

[Taurus]

Is it possible to beat Nightmare

I haven't tried it myself. I have tried to theroticly make it possible, but you would have to be a far more advanced player then I am. If you are playing it through for your first time, and you are a rather advanced player, I would reccomend 'Normal' as it is designed to be challanging, but at the same time reasonable.

[beetlenaut]

Great campaign. It was hard enough that I felt pretty good being able to beat it--even on Normal. Later, I'll try it on a harder level. I noticed one problem: Anita got killed (I was using her slows ability a lot), and then she had a lot of dialog at the end of the scenario. Also, the dying elf lord tells you to continue keeping her safe. ("I don't have the heart to tell you this, but...")

Also, out of curiosity, what happens if Krash dies? He becomes pretty necessary in some of the later scenarios, but you don't have to keep him alive to win the earlier ones. If you lost him which wouldn't seem huge, you might be very confused at how hard Stolen Gold is. He totally rescued me there by drawing off some of the legions of bad guys.

[thespaceinvader]

Agreed, as i've said before. The loss conditions are a bit confusing in places - Krash particularly, but also Anita should DEFINITELY be lose conditions if the die, given that they are two of the allied generals in the final battle, and winning would be next to impossible without them. Though i've not played on after they've died in the past, i've restarted and tried again, so i didn't know their dialogue still pops up. I did lose elenia in the last scenario, though, and i think her dialogue still worked, if she had any...

[Angry Andersen]

I think you should be allowed to move on, even if they are killed. But a brief message suggesting that things will be much harder without them might be a good idea.

[Sly]

Also, out of curiosity, what happens if Krash dies? He becomes pretty necessary in some of the later scenarios, but you don't have to keep him alive to win the earlier ones. If you lost him which wouldn't seem huge, you might be very confused at how hard Stolen Gold is. He totally rescued me there by drawing off some of the legions of bad guys.

Stolen Gold isn't so difficult : just stay and forify yourself in the mountains with Dwarven Lords. If you have enough firepower make a sortie with a squad of powerfull units at dawn and kill a troll leader each day

If Krash dies beforehand, you have no help and he is replaced in the last scenario by one of the Liches

[thespaceinvader]

One of the liches recruiting undead units? Hmm, might be worth letting krashy die after all...

And stolen gold i generally have knocked on the head (on easy) ebfore krash arrives, with just the mop-up (which he is helpful in) left. You have to be VERY aggressive, but you can kill the blue troll leader within 3 turns, usually, as long as Tallin's a Grand Marshall with the Staff of Righteousness.