The Rise of Wesnoth

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octalot
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by octalot »

Look back at scenario 1's intro, the balance of power has been against the Lich Lords for a long time. So yes, the current Prince inherited an army with the magical powers sufficient to either kill or (as with the one in S09) imprison the liches.
After a time of great struggle, a peace was reached. We came to dominate most of the Isle, with the Wesfolk pushed onto the most marginal of lands. In confronting their vile legions, we grew strong. Indeed, it was from this war we gleaned our first shards of knowledge about magic.
...
Over time our skills as navigators grew. Then, one day, the strong-hearted Crown Prince of Southbay returned home from a long voyage with a fabulous tale. He said that there were lands to the east that could be reached by aggressively sailing to the east and north, to compensate for southern pull of the ocean.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

@octalot: That description is of the GreenIslanders' struggle against the Wesfolk _refugees_, not the Lich-lords' loyal forces. There had not been a direct conflict between the Green Islanders and the Lich-lord forces proper. IIANM, contact was limited to a precarious trading route.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by gnombat »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 16th, 2021, 1:04 pm @octalot: That description is of the GreenIslanders' struggle against the Wesfolk _refugees_, not the Lich-lords' loyal forces. There had not been a direct conflict between the Green Islanders and the Lich-lord forces proper. IIANM, contact was limited to a precarious trading route.
What do you mean by "the Lich-lords' loyal forces"? The Wesfolk were the Lich-Lords' loyal forces up until the point when the Lich-Lords brought in the orcs. I think this is clear from the introduction where it is said that the Crown Prince "conspired to start a war of distraction with the poor Wesfolk kingdoms and their Lich-Lords."

See also the Timeline on the wiki.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

gnombat wrote: September 16th, 2021, 1:44 pm What do you mean by "the Lich-lords' loyal forces"? The Wesfolk were the Lich-Lords' loyal forces up until the point when the Lich-Lords brought in the orcs.
well... the initial dialog says:
Then THEY came, the Wesfolk. They were a wicked, brutal, and dirty lot.

They were the vanquished refugees of some war, fleeing from their homes in a land even farther off into the west.
So, the loyal and organized forces of the Lich-lords - at first, Humans + Undead, then maybe-some-Humans + Orcs + Undead - were always on the Western continent. If vanquished refugee wash-ups were troublesome for the Green Islanders, naturally they wouldn't hold a candle to the Lich-lords' loyal forces.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by gnombat »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 16th, 2021, 6:41 pm So, the loyal and organized forces of the Lich-lords - at first, Humans + Undead, then maybe-some-Humans + Orcs + Undead - were always on the Western continent.
According to the wiki timeline, the Lich-Lords left the western continent and arrived on the Green Isle 200 years before the events of The Rise of Wesnoth. (I don't think the date is actually mentioned in the text of TRoW, but it seems clear that it occurred many years in the past.)
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by octalot »

A line that confirms that Lich-Lords were among the Wesfolk arrivals is this one:
Other than losing our war in the far West, then our refugee war to your people, and this orc thing, it wasn’t such a bad deal. Lich-Lord Lenvan was one of our greatest leaders. He led our escape to this land. Albeit, after being down in that hole for so long I don’t imagine he’s too happy.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

@octalot: You're right, I had forgotten about that line. However, that doesn't fully undermine my point: You have all the lich-lords and their forces, in their established civilization with cities and ports and what-not; and a splinter group led by a single Lich-lord. So rephrasing my last sentence, I'd say that if the weaker, single-Lich refugee contigent was troublesome for the Green Islanders, the mainstay of their forces on the Western continent would be far too strong for them.

@gnomblat: The timeline seems to contradict the dialog piece saying that it was just Lenvan (and his human followers) who left the western continent. The timing sounds reasonable though, considering how Lenvan has been stuck in a cave for a long time.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by octalot »

I think all of the Lich-Lords and Wesfolk arrived at the same time, in a backstory that's similar to TRoW itself. Which lines are you relying on to say that there were some who came later?
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

@octalot:

1. We just read how Jenesse says a single Lich-Lord, Lenvan, led them to the Green Isle - not the rest.

2. If all of the Lich-lords had arrived 200 years ago, then the Green Islanders would have fought them all then. The Lich-lords would not have just all stood aside while their hosts are defeated, then waited 200 years to do something about it.

3. The intro says: "the route from the western continent to our Green Isle was perilous at the best of times - so perilous that a stable trading relationship between the mainland and the Isle could never be maintained." - so the route did not die out 200 years ago, it continued to exist, i.e. a (trading, non-undead) civilization continued to exist on the Western continent.

Now, you could argue that maybe the Lich-lords only came as far as the outlying islands and stayed there for 200 years; and that Janesse is from one of those outlying islands, and is using the word "us" liberally about Lenvan. But it's a bit of a stretch.
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octalot
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by octalot »

1. It's similar to say "Haldric was one of our greatest leaders. He led us to the Great Continent." What part of that doesn't match TRoW, where they all migrated around 1YW?

2. That's what I'm saying, that they all arrived and the war started then.

3. The temporal hints in that are ambiguous, but I don't see how it could mean that there's an active trade route around the time of Haldric. Also, if there were then Haldric would probably have mentioned the remaining civilisation when Jessene said that the Wesfolk had had to flee.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

@octalot:

1. The other Green Island leaders did not lead, nor go with, their people to the Eastern continent. The other Lich-lords did not lead, nor go with, their people to the Green Island. The difference is that the other Green Island human leaders died, and no Human forces remained on the Green Island. The Lich-lords, however, did not die, and retained some sort of following and forces.

2. You're reading the opposite of what I wrote. The Green Islanders had not fought the Lich-lords 200 years before TRoW; thus, the Lich-lords had not arrived 200 years before TRoW.

3. "don't see how it could mean that there's an active trade route around the time of Haldric" - it means just that. When you say a _stable_ trading relationship could not be maintained, this implies a _non-stable_ trading relationship has been maintained. Naturally the text could be changed to say something else and it wouldn't contradict the story, but right now it says what it says.
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octalot
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by octalot »

1. What text in the campaign says that any Lich-Lord, other than those who came with Lenvan "did not die, and retained some sort of following and forces"?

2. You wrote "if X, then the Green Islanders would have fought them all then", intending it to be hypothetical; I'm saying, "yes, X is what happened". What text in the campaign says that X did not happen?

3. On this one I just disagree with you about how that can be read, particularly when it contains "at the best of times" and "never".
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revolting_peasant
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by revolting_peasant »

1. Well, Jevyan did not die. And he is not listed as someone who had led the Wesfolk in their arrival to the Green Island 200 years ago.

2. You can't pose the question that way... if nothing says all/most/multiple Lich-lords arrived 200 years ago, but something says that _one_ Lich-lord arrived (Lenvan), then it's the multi-lord arrival that needs text supporting it.

3. If two people of sound mind (if I may say so about myself) disagree about the plausible reading of a piece of dialog, then it could probably use a at least a bit of clarification.
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by gnombat »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:16 pm If two people of sound mind (if I may say so about myself) disagree about the plausible reading of a piece of dialog, then it could probably use a at least a bit of clarification.
Well, I think what you're looking for is more than just "a bit of clarification". You seem to want to make quite substantial changes to the storyline (and possibly the gameplay) of the campaign. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that (a lot of the mainline campaigns have undergone major changes over the years), but it looks like it would be a lot more complicated than just changing a line of dialog.

It might be best to just publish a revised version of the campaign on the add-on server (like other people have done) with whatever text and gameplay changes you think are required. Then people can try playing that and see what they think of it.
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ZIM
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Re: The Rise of Wesnoth

Post by ZIM »

Since we now have Winds of Fate as a mainline campaign, isn't it time to update the speech of the drakes in scenario 13 to follow Morogor's dialect?

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker=Gerrick
            # wmllint: local spelling Ssso humansss usss
            message= _ "Ssso humansss, you’ve come to trouble usss again. Prepare to die! For the glory of the Lords of Morogor!"
        [/message]
Currently they're speaking like saurians, which is more unusual than using normal speech. I have a suggestion for the new dialogues. Any thoughts?

Code: Select all

        [message]
            speaker=Kegrid
            message= _ "Lo! The haldric have made landfall upon the shore. What shall we do, brethren?"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Gerrick
            message= _ "I say we shall feast upon them, for the game has been rather scarce. I call upon the Hunt!"
        [/message]
        [message]
            speaker=Merkush
            message= _ "May the blood of our prey brandish our talons!"
        [/message]
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