Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by skeptical_troll »

Pre-history:
As for the rest and in particular the mistrust of magic, I think the concept may work but it would be stronger with some modification. If their past enemies made use of magic and they want to prevent their return, or something similar to happen, it's much more natural to study their weapons rather than banning them. I don't think necromancy in Wesnoth is banned because of the thousands of evil liches invasions, but rather due to moral/cultural concerns such as respect for the dead people or self-imposed limits on playing god. If you fear that such an enemy may appear again you'd want to be prepared.

A possible variation on the lore which may fix this is that it was actually the dunefolk the ones who used to try magic to fight the enemies (perhaps against the better advice of their dwarvish allies), but this ended badly because they lost control of it and nearly wiped themselves out. So a group of 'scientists', perhaps precursors of the luminaries council, decided to research weapons by rational/empirical investigation and this shifted the tide and saved the day. It is reasonable that these people then became extremely influential and established the cultural background of 'current' dunefolk, in which the council of luminaries still is vigilant and skeptical about magic, although contact with Wesnoth may change this.

That said, I really like the lore part involving dwarves as 'protectors' of runes, the elemental magic and the crystals. It fits remarkably well the lore I imagined in Return from the Abyss so I'm happy I won't have to modify it too much :lol: I even went a bit further and imagined that the Ruby of Fire was just one of these crystals including elemental power, likely one of the most powerful. Since it literally came out of the ground, it's a very natural association to make.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

skeptical_troll wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 12:53 pm
Pre-history:
Pre-history:
skeptical_troll wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 12:53 pm
A possible variation on the lore which may fix this is that it was actually the dunefolk the ones who used to try magic to fight the enemies (perhaps against the better advice of their dwarvish allies), but this ended badly because they lost control of it and nearly wiped themselves out. So a group of 'scientists', perhaps precursors of the luminaries council, decided to research weapons by rational/empirical investigation and this shifted the tide and saved the day. It is reasonable that these people then became extremely influential and established the cultural background of 'current' dunefolk, in which the council of luminaries still is vigilant and skeptical about magic, although contact with Wesnoth may change this.
It seems we cannot get around to have dunefolk involved with magic to explain their mistrust to magic.

While I must admit, what you are saying could just as well work, I think it sounds just very ... unused to be. For me and probably many others, dunefolk were this faction that really had nothing to do with magic so far, and now introducing them as a faction that "failed" to use magic in controlled manners seems odd. It would make them be like dunefolk were just "bad" magicians and thats why they banned it.

I'd have to hear more opinions on that. While it makes sense, it feels a bit odd.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by Xalzar »

ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:51 am
While I must admit, what you are saying could just as well work, I think it sounds just very ... unused to be. For me and probably many others, dunefolk were this faction that really had nothing to do with magic so far, and now introducing them as a faction that "failed" to use magic in controlled manners seems odd. It would make them be like dunefolk were just "bad" magicians and thats why they banned it.

I'd have to hear more opinions on that. While it makes sense, it feels a bit odd.
Think of it as nuclear power in our world. Extremely beneficial if used well, yet it could be also used in terrible ways (and magic in Wesnoth is heavily weaponized so the risk exists), and even if used well-intentionally it could lead to disaster (nuclear power plants accidents...).
So, like some nations in our world, the Dunefolk decided they were better off without that power, trusting science to fill the gap left from that renounced power.

Accidents don't mean necessarily that the Dunefolk were using magic cluelessly or carelessly, just that they deemed magic not worth the risk. And they could have been right, if we consider how the events of the Fall of Wesnoth would eventually unfold.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Think of it as nuclear power in our world...
Initially, when i first read your answer I could have started to imagine that it could work.
Coming back now, I remembered that that "the Fall" itself is describes as such a nuclear devastation.


So what could that be that could have happened to the dunefolks in the past, that is enough for them to quit magic but not comparable to the fall (because we cannot have the fall twice for obvious reasons)
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by skeptical_troll »

Oh I think connecting it to the fall it's a nice perspective and can bring some unity to the dunefolk (hi)story arch, and integrating them in the current lore. It doesn't have to be as destructive as the fall, of course, but it could be a comparable event in nature, like the use of elemental magic or crystal as a weapon or perhaps to 'terraform' their arid territory to make it less hostile (so nothing as extreme as raising a sun, and perhaps they never had in their hands something as powerful as the Ruby of Fire). Basically they had a 'glimpse' of what the fall could be and then will try to warn the world about the danger but they'll go unheard.

It could be, very similar to your current version, that it was just a sub-faction of the dunefolk who did it and many were already wary about it, which triggered a civil war with disastrous consequences.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

skeptical_troll wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 6:41 pm
Oh I think connecting it to the fall it's a nice perspective and can bring some unity to the dunefolk (hi)story arch, and integrating them in the current lore. It doesn't have to be as destructive as the fall, of course, but it could be a comparable event in nature, like the use of elemental magic or crystal as a weapon or perhaps to 'terraform' their arid territory to make it less hostile (so nothing as extreme as raising a sun, and perhaps they never had in their hands something as powerful as the Ruby of Fire). Basically they had a 'glimpse' of what the fall could be and then will try to warn the world about the danger but they'll go unheard.
According to this background, than I am wondering, why would they not stop wesnoth once the ruby of fire gets known of. If dunefolk had merely some merchants in the north, those merchants would have heard of those events and if not than just rumors. Dunefolk would have tried to stop the events surrounding the ruby of fire then already, wouldn't they?
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

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ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:32 pm
According to this background, than I am wondering, why would they not stop wesnoth once the ruby of fire gets known of. If dunefolk had merely some merchants in the north, those merchants would have heard of those events and if not than just rumors. Dunefolk would have tried to stop the events surrounding the ruby of fire then already, wouldn't they?
Fair point. I can imagine interfering with other nation's choices it's a stronger action than legislate about their own, and they may be used to other folks using magic and just accept it, even if it's a practice they despise. Perhaps they don't even care if other people want to gamble their own safety and rely on what they consider an unreliable force. In their eyes, this gives them an advantage, and they are fine with a king throwing fire balls in the battlefield at the risking of burning himself.

However this may change when they realize the true power of the Ruby and the level of risk involved in Wesnoth's plan of raising a whole new sun. Feeling that this would endanger them as well, they'd feel compelled to intervene, however late.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

skeptical_troll wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:21 pm
However this may change when they realize the true power of the Ruby and the level of risk involved in Wesnoth's plan of raising a whole new sun. Feeling that this would endanger them as well, they'd feel compelled to intervene, however late.
Yes, yumi suggested this as a possible campaign, the devs seemed to like that, and I am also holding on to that idea!


We could think of many more alterations on why the dunefolk could have used magic, but it went wrong. With my suggested version I kind of scratch the surface of the power of rune magic ,supposing the ruby of fire is the same kind of runic crystal as the ones the tribes abused. Also I would call it less a sub faction but more relatives ... like you had this one big wandering folk, and some settled for sandy dunes and isolation while others settled for hills and mountains. The moutnain tribes are the ones who discovered the rune magic and terrorised the dune tribes. once the mountain tribes were defeated with the help of dwarfs, the dune tribes took over what ever was left from the mountain tribes (cities were build, etc etc.) and the dune tribes became what we know as Dunefolk.

So in the end, it is more or less as you said, as the the time line I suggest the Dunefolk did not exists, they were just a bunch of tribes. So yeah, in a way not the dunefolk themselves, but there imminent ancestors did.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

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ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm
So in the end, it is more or less as you said, as the the time line I suggest the Dunefolk did not exists, they were just a bunch of tribes. So yeah, in a way not the dunefolk themselves, but there imminent ancestors did.
Sounds legit to me. I think the two key points are
1. Mistrust comes for awareness of potential collateral effects, not simply harm inflicted by a past enemy.
2. The dunefolk, or their direct ancestors, were first witness of such collateral effects and suffered the consequences, so either 'relatives' or 'subgroup' would do.

I'm also curios to hear what are the plans (if any) about the role of dwarves in all this, since your background story suggests they also witnessed the destruction brought by the crystals and took the duty of hiding and protecting them. This is actually what a dwarvish king is doing in RftA, although it's not a central element in the story. In my head canon, dwarves are the most aware of the danger in the use of elemental stones. They forged the scepter of fire after all, and runic/elemental magic is their specialty for what I understand. It would make a lot of sense that they'd re-form the old alliance with the dunefolk once the time come to prevent the disaster.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by Xalzar »

ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm
skeptical_troll wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:21 pm
However this may change when they realize the true power of the Ruby and the level of risk involved in Wesnoth's plan of raising a whole new sun. Feeling that this would endanger them as well, they'd feel compelled to intervene, however late.
Yes, yumi suggested this as a possible campaign, the devs seemed to like that, and I am also holding on to that idea!
I'm sorry, what? Where?

Also, what is all this about the Ruby? How are the Dunefolk able to recognize it as a runic crystal? It is after all encased in a sceptre.
Until the Fall - and only if we take it for granted that the Ruby was indeed used to raise literal suns - the Ruby has been used more like a beefed-up glorified fire-magic wand and then promptly forgotten in many campaigns where it could have proven useful.
Sure we have Liches lusting for its power, but even then we are not sure really how much powerful it is. We only know of its evilising influence, but the Sceptre was made to remedy that. Elves certainly did not take the Ruby off the hands of humans the moment they knew it existed, they only warned the humans of its danger if used unprotected. That should be explained then.
Also, remember that was the third sun that crashed down, did the Dunefolk try to stop Wesnoth from rising the second one and failed? Then maybe after that they burned all bridges with Wesnoth and retreated to their lands in isolation, before the final disaster?

And if we connect the Ruby to other runic crystals, are there more rubies, or other stones, capable of such feats? Well, magic is really strong in Irdya then! :lol:
Maybe the fact that they are crystal in the first place is an indication of something more than normal magic, something more like "primordial magic", or the "essence" of magic coming from the core of the planet itself. Could explain how rune magic works (lesser fragments of this unimaginable power) and its connection to the underground caverns and Dwarves.
Just brainstorming...
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm
So in the end, it is more or less as you said, as the the time line I suggest the Dunefolk did not exists, they were just a bunch of tribes. So yeah, in a way not the dunefolk themselves, but there imminent ancestors did.
As I said in another topic, I think this relegates the Dunefolk story to a very restricted timeline, with little breath for development of campaigns.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by skeptical_troll »

Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
Also, remember that was the third sun that crashed down, did the Dunefolk try to stop Wesnoth from rising the second one and failed? Then maybe after that they burned all bridges with Wesnoth and retreated to their lands in isolation, before the final disaster?
OT, but I've always found the second sun an unnecessary complication, going straight out to the disaster would have been much cleaner :lol: But anyway, I guess magic being a 'risk' means that sometimes it goes well. Second sun was a success so people could say to the DF, 'you see, we were right!', but of course this isn't a very dramatic finale for a campaign. :hmm:
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
And if we connect the Ruby to other runic crystals, are there more rubies, or other stones, capable of such feats?
I personally like this, and in my head canon several of these crystal shall be used for the sun-launching business. The dunefolk story could be useful to shed light on these aspects.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm
skeptical_troll wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:21 pm
However this may change when they realize the true power of the Ruby and the level of risk involved in Wesnoth's plan of raising a whole new sun. Feeling that this would endanger them as well, they'd feel compelled to intervene, however late.
Yes, yumi suggested this as a possible campaign, the devs seemed to like that, and I am also holding on to that idea!
I'm sorry, what? Where?
Here:
"The Fall of Wesnoth would be a Dunefolk campaign using the underground Luminary (or Eminent) secret society, who are actually cultists. The main character would be an antihero who is drawn into their secret lore and becomes enamored with it, eventually working to spur the fall of Wesnoth after using his demon allies to manipulate the rise of the third sun into failing. A major part of this would potentially be infiltrating Weldyn and gaining access to the Sceptre of Fire, with which the main character uses to contact said demons"
Wether the campaign is form the perspective of anti-hero or not, the dunefolk would want to stop that event. There was no one to my knoweledge of the devs who did not supported this idea.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
Also, what is all this about the Ruby? How are the Dunefolk able to recognize it as a runic crystal? It is after all encased in a sceptre.
Until the Fall - and only if we take it for granted that the Ruby was indeed used to raise literal suns - the Ruby has been used more like a beefed-up glorified fire-magic wand and then promptly forgotten in many campaigns where it could have proven useful.
Sure we have Liches lusting for its power, but even then we are not sure really how much powerful it is. We only know of its evilising influence, but the Sceptre was made to remedy that. Elves certainly did not take the Ruby off the hands of humans the moment they knew it existed, they only warned the humans of its danger if used unprotected. That should be explained then.
Also, remember that was the third sun that crashed down, did the Dunefolk try to stop Wesnoth from rising the second one and failed? Then maybe after that they burned all bridges with Wesnoth and retreated to their lands in isolation, before the final disaster?
All of that is matter of the rework. If we have reasons to change it or to explain it further then no one will say anything against it as long as it makes sense.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
And if we connect the Ruby to other runic crystals, are there more rubies, or other stones, capable of such feats? Well, magic is really strong in Irdya then! :lol:
Maybe the fact that they are crystal in the first place is an indication of something more than normal magic, something more like "primordial magic", or the "essence" of magic coming from the core of the planet itself. Could explain how rune magic works (lesser fragments of this unimaginable power) and its connection to the underground caverns and Dwarves.
Just brainstorming...
i would see the ruby of fire to be the far most powerful of the runic stones.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm
So in the end, it is more or less as you said, as the the time line I suggest the Dunefolk did not exists, they were just a bunch of tribes. So yeah, in a way not the dunefolk themselves, but there imminent ancestors did.
As I said in another topic, I think this relegates the Dunefolk story to a very restricted timeline, with little breath for development of campaigns.
[/quote]

How so?

The Golden Age of the Dunefolks is said to be taking place while or after the Silver Age of Wesnoth. According to the current versions, the dunefolk were there before the Haldrics people, but due to their nomadic life and the cataclysmic events (the war with the other tribes using runes) it took them much longer to flourish as haldrics people. With the Golden Age of dunefolk taking place approximately between 600YW and 800YW, it puts the main events of the dunefolks relatively close to the end of the mainline events of wesnoth. So we have also an uncertain amount of time to be exploring after 850 YW, until the fall. The fall youl either take place relatively close to 850YW or it can take place a after (1500-2000YW). It us up to us to explore and find a suitable scenarios. The Dunefolk epoch ideally should end with them trying to prevent the fall.
skeptical_troll wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:24 am
I'm also curios to hear what are the plans (if any) about the role of dwarves in all this, since your background story suggests they also witnessed the destruction brought by the crystals and took the duty of hiding and protecting them. This is actually what a dwarvish king is doing in RftA, although it's not a central element in the story. In my head canon, dwarves are the most aware of the danger in the use of elemental stones. They forged the scepter of fire after all, and runic/elemental magic is their specialty for what I understand. It would make a lot of sense that they'd re-form the old alliance with the dunefolk once the time come to prevent the disaster.
This could be a good start. All we have on the past events concering the Dunefolk and Dwarfs is what you can see here in the thread, meaning almost nothing. You are welcome to expand on this and I will include it in the main posts
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

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ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:37 am
This could be a good start. All we have on the past events concering the Dunefolk and Dwarfs is what you can see here in the thread, meaning almost nothing. You are welcome to expand on this and I will include it in the main posts
In that case I'll just report here some notes on the matter which I wrote years ago, while planning a campaign to which RftA was just a prequel, but then things got out of control :lol:
Some of this may feel OT but since it's all interconnected in my mind I'll still write it here. Feel free to ignore and take inspiration from whatever you feel suitable.
on the elemental stones:
How it is connected to current history:
Premise of the planned campaign and connection to mainline lore:
TL;DR - how this could fit in dunefolk's origin:
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

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skeptical_troll wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:21 pm
However this may change when they realize the true power of the Ruby and the level of risk involved in Wesnoth's plan of raising a whole new sun. Feeling that this would endanger them as well, they'd feel compelled to intervene, however late.
Yes, in fact it would not surprise me if the dunefolk, learning of the plan to raise a sun, actually go to war with Wesnoth to stop it. The scientifically-minded dunefolk would recognize that banishing darkness is a fool's errand and that the plan, if successful, would have far more consequences than the planners seem to comprehend.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:34 am
only if we take it for granted that the Ruby was indeed used to raise literal suns
When you put it that way, it sounds pretty unbelievable.

I think the ruby isn't directly used on its own to raise a literal sun. It might be used as a catalyst or something, but the plan would require a lot more than just the ruby,
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:37 am
The Golden Age of the Dunefolks is said to be taking place while or after the Silver Age of Wesnoth. According to the current versions, the dunefolk were there before the Haldrics people, but due to their nomadic life and the cataclysmic events (the war with the other tribes using runes) it took them much longer to flourish as haldrics people. With the Golden Age of dunefolk taking place approximately between 600YW and 800YW, it puts the main events of the dunefolks relatively close to the end of the mainline events of wesnoth. So we have also an uncertain amount of time to be exploring after 850 YW, until the fall. The fall youl either take place relatively close to 850YW or it can take place a after (1500-2000YW). It us up to us to explore and find a suitable scenarios. The Dunefolk epoch ideally should end with them trying to prevent the fall.
Um, really? I just checked the timeline and found that the "Golden Age of Wesnoth" begins around 200YW, and as far as I know we were treating the dunefolk has having arrived around the same time as the wesfolk (roughly – within about a hundred years of each other, maybe). So you're saying the dunefolk took four hundred extra years to reach their own golden age? That's thrice the time the wesfolk took. Or… you said the dunefolk arrived earlier, so it took them more like seven or eight hundred extra years? I can understand that a cataclysmic event could've delayed progress. That makes sense. But I think the degree to which you're suggesting it delays progress might be too high.

Also, the degree of cataclysm we seem to be considering is "terrible war" but not "nuclear war". It wouldn't destroy all progress up to that point; there would be some setbacks, sure, but a lot of knowledge would likely survive the war and allow them to rebuild.

Final note: while I'm not necessarily agreeing with skeptical_troll's most recent post, I do admit that the existence of a Ruby of Fire certainly does make one wonder if there are stones of other elements – an Emerald of Earth, or a Sapphire of Air, or an Opal of Water? Not something that needs to be decided, though – it could be left open.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 2:15 am
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:37 am
The Golden Age of the Dunefolks is said to be taking place while or after the Silver Age of Wesnoth. According to the current versions, the dunefolk were there before the Haldrics people, but due to their nomadic life and the cataclysmic events (the war with the other tribes using runes) it took them much longer to flourish as haldrics people. With the Golden Age of dunefolk taking place approximately between 600YW and 800YW, it puts the main events of the dunefolks relatively close to the end of the mainline events of wesnoth. So we have also an uncertain amount of time to be exploring after 850 YW, until the fall. The fall youl either take place relatively close to 850YW or it can take place a after (1500-2000YW). It us up to us to explore and find a suitable scenarios. The Dunefolk epoch ideally should end with them trying to prevent the fall.
Um, really? I just checked the timeline and found that the "Golden Age of Wesnoth" begins around 200YW, and as far as I know we were treating the dunefolk has having arrived around the same time as the wesfolk (roughly – within about a hundred years of each other, maybe). So you're saying the dunefolk took four hundred extra years to reach their own golden age? That's thrice the time the wesfolk took. Or… you said the dunefolk arrived earlier, so it took them more like seven or eight hundred extra years? I can understand that a cataclysmic event could've delayed progress. That makes sense. But I think the degree to which you're suggesting it delays progress might be too high.

Also, the degree of cataclysm we seem to be considering is "terrible war" but not "nuclear war". It wouldn't destroy all progress up to that point; there would be some setbacks, sure, but a lot of knowledge would likely survive the war and allow them to rebuild.

Well, one of the biggest problem we are having here is to explain dunefolks origin as a human race to those who questions that. Considering that Haldrics people were until now considered the first human on the continent until now and the could be subject to change with Yumi rework - we came up with the origin story initially posted here with some of yumis thoughts, which I summarised in an following post (maybe you missed them).

I gave an aproximation of 2000 before YW of their emigration from the Green isle but it can be any other number of years. Eitherway, that makes the dunefolk tribes the first human on the continent in the south. It could be 500BW-400BW (300/200 before the lich lords arrived). The reason why took so long to their golden ages is :
  • (1) they were wandering (nomadic) tribes rumouring around the old continent for probably 200-300 Years maybe? Dunno if that could be accurate.)
  • (2) once settled in the south/west of the great continent, it took them maybe another hundret or two years to cultivate the lands and their tribes
  • (3.1)At this time Haldric reached the north, this is were the tribes in the south could have their "terrible war" which is not just a war but a period of periodical terror. It could last 50 years or more. Once defeated, the remaining tribes unified as the dunefolk. This is where they started to build their first ever cities (Th'arwya, Kesh, Serrul ...)
  • (3.2) Haldrics people have had been living in cities on the green isles already. That means that they knew how to build houses, roads etc etc. once they arrived on the new continent. The Dunefolk did not. They had to learn everything by themselves. Learning it I don't think was the problem. I suppose they could have learned some things from the dwarfs but I think the bigger problem were the resources. Especially the lack of wood after the war ended. Lastly considering that most of them were still have roots nomadic lifestyle, it must have took them quiet some time to adapt to new infrastructures and a lifestyle which becomes less nomadic (not saying that some maintained the nomadic lifestyle).
  • (4.0) All these things from (3.2) - and they are probably some more reasons - would not only slow up the process of them forming a civilisation such as Wesnoth could take them indeed twice or even more as long. Then reaching the Golden age might also take longer... Also note that the dunefolks in the beginning were not ruled by one king in total unity as wesnoth was. It was more every one for its own, but ofc with support of the others or trading or etc.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 2:15 am
Final note: while I'm not necessarily agreeing with skeptical_troll's most recent post, I do admit that the existence of a Ruby of Fire certainly does make one wonder if there are stones of other elements – an Emerald of Earth, or a Sapphire of Air, or an Opal of Water? Not something that needs to be decided, though – it could be left open.
What exactly are you not agreeing with skepticals last post. I think it serves a good background not only the dunefolk/dwarf dynamics but also might tie well in with the northern lore. Am I missing something crucial here?

As for the elemental stones , it could be , but I wouldn't focus too much on "one stone for each element". It would be enough to acknowledge that there are such runic stones with magical properties which come in different sizes (or shards). The ruby of fire is just yet the biggest to be known.
In the dunefolk origin story, when I was saying that the "mountain" tribes used runic stones to terrorise the "dune" tribes, I never thought of stones as big as the ruby of fire. I was thinking more like shards or something a lot smaller.
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