Li'sar's Characterization in HttT (Spoilers)

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The Great Rings
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by The Great Rings »

lonebeast wrote:You do have a point but I think that if Li'sar went to possibly hostile territory without any guardians, it would be equally unwise... Perhaps she shold take at least a small number of soldiers?
(I also had an idea where Li'sar, while approaching Aethenwood, meets some royal soldiers sent to besiege the elves but suffered heavy losses, and then Li'sar has to rally these troops and lead them into battle - and those soldiers fight for her in Aethenwood).
Is their any indication that Asheviere sent troops against the elves before the start of Heir to the Throne? Would this contradict the start of Heir to the Throne?

But yes, it would make sense to take some bodyguards, though to have any hope of secrecy it would have to be a small detachment composed of people Li'sar trusts (unless she's prepared to kill the witnesses afterwards).

Of course, she could come up with some pretext to tell her mother. Like "I was trying to ambush Delfadore but it didn't work out."
I suspect Asheviere blamed Delfador for all her crimes and maybe even that it was he who murdered the heirs. :) But that's a big question: what is Asheviere's cover story? I mean, some people who remember the battle at Ford of Abez are still living... and some of them took part in prince Eldred's betrayal. Maybe the population of Wesnoth actually knows the truth but is too scared by the Dark Queen to speak it aloud?
Perhaps.
I was thinking that thought too, but if that assassin was her long-time friend, Li'sar's dialogue lines in HttT should be completely different. :D
Perhaps her friend dies in the prequel like you said and the guy from Heir to the Throne is his replacement (he could appear at the end).
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Well, I have some objections to your ideas as well as you have to mine. :) But I think that Li'sar's first missions could really be an interesting story... However, if the official timeline is correct, Li'sar is only two years older than Konrad and is only 19 years old at the beginning of HttT. (Other source mentions Konrad as 22 years old, so Li'sar is about 24 years old...) I mean, she did not have much time to go through too many adventures.
The time line says Li'sar was born in 498 and Konrad (the real one, anyway, though presumably the fake one is about the same age) was born in 500 while Heir to the Throne begins in 517 and ends in 518.

I'm not sure what, if anything, contradicts that.
I, however, was thinking that Li'sar could face the problem of not being taken seriously: she was a woman, a young girl, a "cloistered child" and so on. But I'm not sure how to develop this theme...
Don't know how big an issue sexism is in Wesnoth, though the lack of female troops outside of mages and the occasional noble commander is suggestive. But this makes sense.

I think showing Li'sar isolated as a child, and being somewhat naieve early on, and then having her soldiers largely complaining about her behind her back or even ignoring her orders on occasion until she proves she's competent could do it.
Okay, I see that some of us have different visions of how Li'sar's early adventures should be. And I'm in doubt: is it worth the effort to make a campaign aimed to better show Li'sar if someone, somewhere will definetly be unsatisfied with what he'll see?
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On one hand, unlike Kalenz or Delfador, Li'sar is young and it would be difficult to write a campaign about events unrelated to HttT, and on the other hand, a campaign about event preceding HttT is likely to contradict the main campaign...
I don't see why that would be the case.

You can either show established events that have been referred to but not shown in great detail or focus on other events. Only a small number of major events are established during that time period as far as I know, and not in great detail. So unless there's something flat-out saying that nothing else of note happened during that time, you can just come up with something new.

Their are certain people and factions that can't be wiped out, but Wesnoth is overflowing with random outlaws/undead/etc. to fight without contradicting what's been established.

One more thing I've decided to edit in: I've been playing Heir to the Throne, and I just played the scenario where Li'sar first meets Konrad. Now, from what I recall of the dialog, there's nothing their that contradicts Li'sar knowing the truth about Konrad. But it would change the meaning of the scene significantly. As it stands, Li'sar comes off as a ranting fanatical loyalist who just believes what the queen says when she accuses the other side of lying. But in your version, she would actually have good reason for that position.

Also, there is a real question of why Li'sar knowing this wouldn't ever come up in Heir to the Throne. This is something you need to answer if you want to use this plot.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by Turuk »

*Brushes off some dust*

Stepping back from the Li'sar campaign perspective, what would you do to better portray her understanding of the situation and character development if it could be fleshed out in the current HttT? There's certainly room for improvement in understanding her role, particularly as it relates to her relationship with Konrad, but also in her growth as a strong female character.

What does that mean for the Queen, who stands as a strong character but on the opposite side of the moral coin?
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by The Great Rings »

Well, you already know some of my thoughts on the subject, but I'll give my opinion here for the record.

In brief, while I am wary of changing an established campaign, I do think their is room for improvement in HttT's characterization, both with Li'sar and generally. However, its less a question of outright adding new things as accentuating and clarifying what's already their. Li'sar is an interesting character, or at least has the potential to be one. Its just not really well developed.

I'll elaborate more later.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by The Great Rings »

To expand on the vague summary I gave earlier, I think that their are three main things that need to be done with Li'sar if you're going to rewrite her role:

1. Develop her reasons for switching sides more (I mentioned this earlier in this thread). As far as I recall, she serves her mother loyally for a while despite apparently knowing (based on dialog I recall being in Heir to the Throne) that she commits atrocities, and she pursues Konrad relentlessly, perhaps recklessly. So why the change? Is it out of love for Konrad? Necessity because she no longer has the forces to defeat him and/or because her mother believes her to be a traitor so she can't go back? Or a genuine change in her political loyalties/moral beliefs? Or some combination of the preceding motives?

2. Explore the reasons she remains loyal to her mother up until then. It doesn't have to be in great detail. It could be as simple as a life time of indoctrination.

Yet I think not. Again, from what I recall of the campaign, Li'sar is aware that her mother commits atrocities. She's not blindly loyal. So does she remain loyal because she believes she has no choice? Because she hopes that by doing so she can someday inherit the throne and be a better queen? Due to responsibility/affection towards the men under her command?

3. Play up Li'sar's skill as a commander. She's supposed to be the queen's best general despite being about twenty according to the timeline, yet she adds very little to the campaign once she joins. She's just one more high-level unit. She doesn't bring any of her loyalist troops over with her and while she occasionally disagrees with Konrad, she doesn't offer much in the way of leadership skills. Its a very subordinate role for someone who is a top military commander, princess, and future queen.

I'd like to see her insist on being treated as an equal. I'd like to see her advising Konrad, particularly in the final scenarios when Konrad is marching on Wesnoth (her home territory), based on the fact that she probably actually is the more experienced commander of the two (and some of Konrad's dialog seems so very childish, but that's another issue).

Show that this is someone with the judgement and strength of will to be a queen.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by Turuk »

The Great Rings wrote:I'd like to see her insist on being treated as an equal. I'd like to see her advising Konrad, particularly in the final scenarios when Konrad is marching on Wesnoth (her home territory), based on the fact that she probably actually is the more experienced commander of the two (and some of Konrad's dialog seems so very childish, but that's another issue).

Show that this is someone with the judgement and strength of will to be a queen.
Yes, I agree with this entirely. When they meet, she should be the mature capable commander who is bringing more to the table than Konrad. Not that he's not been through a harrowing time of trial by fire recently, but his maturity is still in the final stages of being hammered out while she's had a few years to grow into her role. As far as his dialogue being childish, that's true in general across the campaign. Even though he is young in the grand scheme of things, the events of the campaign should remove any immaturity quickly.
The Great Rings wrote:1. Develop her reasons for switching sides more (I mentioned this earlier in this thread). As far as I recall, she serves her mother loyally for a while despite apparently knowing (based on dialog I recall being in Heir to the Throne) that she commits atrocities, and she pursues Konrad relentlessly, perhaps recklessly. So why the change? Is it out of love for Konrad? Necessity because she no longer has the forces to defeat him and/or because her mother believes her to be a traitor so she can't go back? Or a genuine change in her political loyalties/moral beliefs? Or some combination of the preceding motives?
Her motivation as a whole needs to be predicated on something more than convenience of plot, I agree. It can be any of the above, and it's more a matter of defining her as a person to understand her motivation. Once set, it can be then kept consistent across scenarios where she is present.
The Great Rings wrote:2. Explore the reasons she remains loyal to her mother up until then. It doesn't have to be in great detail. It could be as simple as a life time of indoctrination.

Yet I think not. Again, from what I recall of the campaign, Li'sar is aware that her mother commits atrocities. She's not blindly loyal. So does she remain loyal because she believes she has no choice? Because she hopes that by doing so she can someday inherit the throne and be a better queen? Due to responsibility/affection towards the men under her command?
I like the thought of her time as a commander showing her that she has ability and compassion that her mother lacks, letting her feel that she could indeed be a better queen for Wesnoth.
The Great Rings wrote:3. Play up Li'sar's skill as a commander. She's supposed to be the queen's best general despite being about twenty according to the timeline, yet she adds very little to the campaign once she joins. She's just one more high-level unit. She doesn't bring any of her loyalist troops over with her and while she occasionally disagrees with Konrad, she doesn't offer much in the way of leadership skills. Its a very subordinate role for someone who is a top military commander, princess, and future queen.
This can be played up in the scenarios themselves, perhaps giving her a bit more leadership attributes in terms of what she does and how she directs events based on her experience/knowledge.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by beetlenaut »

The Great Rings wrote:she adds very little to the campaign once she joins.
What about making Lisar another leader able to recruit loyalist units? (Konrad's list wouldn't change.) The player already has about 15 unit types available, so having more wouldn't make a big difference in difficulty or strategy, but it would make sense for the story and would introduce novice players to another faction.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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The Great Rings wrote:To expand on the vague summary I gave earlier, I think that their are three main things that need to be done with Li'sar if you're going to rewrite her role:

1. Develop her reasons for switching sides more (I mentioned this earlier in this thread). As far as I recall, she serves her mother loyally for a while despite apparently knowing (based on dialog I recall being in Heir to the Throne) that she commits atrocities, and she pursues Konrad relentlessly, perhaps recklessly. So why the change? Is it out of love for Konrad? Necessity because she no longer has the forces to defeat him and/or because her mother believes her to be a traitor so she can't go back? Or a genuine change in her political loyalties/moral beliefs? Or some combination of the preceding motives?

2. Explore the reasons she remains loyal to her mother up until then. It doesn't have to be in great detail. It could be as simple as a life time of indoctrination.

Yet I think not. Again, from what I recall of the campaign, Li'sar is aware that her mother commits atrocities. She's not blindly loyal. So does she remain loyal because she believes she has no choice? Because she hopes that by doing so she can someday inherit the throne and be a better queen? Due to responsibility/affection towards the men under her command?
It's a bit of a common trope perhaps, but I think her perspective could simply be that she's grown to believe that the ruler has to do what they have to do to maintain order, because otherwise there'd be civil war and chaos. If this or that village or lord won't submit, then they're traitors and need to be dealt with, because if you don't deal with traitors you'll soon have a lot more of them. That sounds awfully much like something she likely would have brought up to believe. That combined with her knowing that she'll be the future queen and can try to do a better job seems plenty enough for her to remain loyal, especially at a young age like that.

beetlenaut wrote:
The Great Rings wrote:she adds very little to the campaign once she joins.
What about making Lisar another leader able to recruit loyalist units? (Konrad's list wouldn't change.) The player already has about 15 unit types available, so having more wouldn't make a big difference in difficulty or strategy, but it would make sense for the story and would introduce novice players to another faction.
While it's a bit of a plothole that her loyalists completely disappear (even if a few loyals were allowed to stay), I don't think having a second leader like her especially in the beginner-friendly main campaign would work very well. It'd make sense, but gameplay-wise I doubt it'd really add anything but complexity and even more units to the already massive recruit list.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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zookeeper wrote:While it's a bit of a plothole that her loyalists completely disappear (even if a few loyals were allowed to stay), I don't think having a second leader like her especially in the beginner-friendly main campaign would work very well. It'd make sense, but gameplay-wise I doubt it'd really add anything but complexity and even more units to the already massive recruit list.
What if there was a better way to pare down the recruit list or just have a bit of control back and forth between her and Konrad?
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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Just want to note that with multiple leaders with different recruit lists, it's possible to bring up the recruit menu with all options combined, without any sign that, say, Spearman is only available to Li'sar. I think it has to do with mouse cursor position.

In any case, extra recruit lists will probably appear buggy or confusing to beginners.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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doofus-01 wrote:Just want to note that with multiple leaders with different recruit lists, it's possible to bring up the recruit menu with all options combined, without any sign that, say, Spearman is only available to Li'sar. I think it has to do with mouse cursor position.

In any case, extra recruit lists will probably appear buggy or confusing to beginners.
That's fair - though what about a scenario where one part is done with Konrad, and then the other turned over to Li'sar?
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

Post by The Great Rings »

No offence intended to Zookeeper, but I think its quite insulting to players' intelligence to think they'll be unduly confused by two people being able to recruit, and having it in HttT would be a way to introduce that aspect of gameplay to people (it shows up elsewhere, as I recall).

However, I also am inclined to think that letting Li'sar recruit, and adding all her loyalist units as recruitable, might make an already relatively easy campaign too easy.

The sudden absence of her loyalist forces does need to be addressed, however. I suggest two options, which could be used separately or together-

1. Include a line in the narration or dialog about most of Li'sar's troops leaving rather than fight alongside a traitor.

2. Do not allow Li'sar to recruit, but have any of her units during the scenario where she joins Konrad that survive also join Konrad. I seem to recall this sort of thing happening elsewhere in Battle for Wesnoth. This seems like a simple compromise, and it would encourage the player to actually work to defend Li'sar's units rather than using them as canon fodder.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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Sort of an offtopic: I honestly think adding loyalists to Konrad's army list one way or another could be good since it may look a bit strange when Konrad's goal is to liberate Wesnoth from Asheviere's tyranny but his army consists mostly of non-humans (who aren't subjects of Wesnoth)... :)

However, Konrad's army list is already far too big for even more units to be added. :?
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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Konrad does get to use human outlaws and Wesnothian horsemen. I'd actually say his army is nicely diverse.

Edit: Also mages.
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Re: Campaign idea: Li'sar's adventures

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The Great Rings wrote:However, I also am inclined to think that letting Li'sar recruit, and adding all her loyalist units as recruitable, might make an already relatively easy campaign too easy.

The sudden absence of her loyalist forces does need to be addressed, however. I suggest two options, which could be used separately or together-

1. Include a line in the narration or dialog about most of Li'sar's troops leaving rather than fight alongside a traitor.
This would make sense, as she might release her army so that they aren't branded traitors as well, an action a good commander might make. If she releases her troops, then she couldn't expect to recruit and lead Konrad's mixed army.
The Great Rings wrote:Konrad does get to use human outlaws and Wesnothian horsemen. I'd actually say his army is nicely diverse.
Diverse, but perhaps not the most loyal. Outlaws and horse lords who aren't big fans of the throne, only strength. :P
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