What seperates the best players from the newbies?

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

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unsung
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Post by unsung »

not quite sure how to take that....

but hey, you can ask th epeople Ive playe dwith, as long as there isn't a lag problem my turns are usually very fast.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

MRhe
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Post by MRhe »

Zhukov wrote:...It seems that rather then basing their tactics around such things as terrain and the day/night cycle, some newbies simply apply their favorite tactics regardless.
So a naturally defensive newbie will set up their lines wherever they wish, rather then where the terrain is suitable.
One the other hand, a naturally aggressive newbie will attack whatever enemy units are in range whenever they are in range, rather then setting up favorable cricumstances beforehand (i.e. waiting for day/night or consolidating reinforcements to gain a numeric advantage) or targeting isolated or damaged units.

This is only from my observations. So it could be totally incorrect.
I would be interested to know, do other people notice this sort of thing as well?
I agree, Zhukov. This is probably the most telling difference between a beginner and a more advanced player. I've seen this time and again - a player won't concentrate his forces but will spread out his attacks, attacking several enemy units with single units of his without regard for terrain, time of day, relative strengths, etc. It seems that most beginners use an "attack whenever possible" playing style.

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Post by Becephalus »

hmmm...

I haven't played many MP games, but I played a lot of PC games in general and wargames in particular (especially Fantasy General). I think I naturally do everything listed on that long list of what the experts do. Moreover I am pretty sure I was consistently doing them all before the end of my second campaign.

Yet, I get the feeling that if I played a MP against one of you veterans (I just started at 1.0 and have only played this game for about 40 hours total more or less) I would get beat handily. I used to be very very good at FFA games in Warcraft 3 which requires encylopedic knowledge of unit strengths/counters so maybe I just think this way.

So is there more to it or should I start playing MP seriously now instead of honing my skills against the campaigns.
There are three roads to ruin: by gambling, which is the quickest; through women, which is the most pleasurable; and through taking the advice of experts, which is the most certain. -de Gaulle

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Post by Glowing Fish »

Well, there is one possible answer, which is that the best players in Wesnoth aren't just players. They are creators.

People coming from other games, which are designed by corporations for consumers, often have an idea that a game is a challenge put forward to test their masculinity.

To go beyond being a newbie, and even being a competent player of the game...you have to be creative, just not competitive.

And I hope that isn't a hippy dippy answer.
Don't go to Glowing Fish for advice, he will say both yes and no.

Becephalus
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Post by Becephalus »

Well I have created mods for a few other games, but I know next to nothing about coding (snipets of python and xml, and whatever paradox uses on thier games). Mostly I have just worked on data balancing mods which deal with text files (economy too fast to slow new units/maps etc.)

If I knew a little more about coding I might be tempted to make some Wheel of Time scenarios/campaigns for this game (BfW really is a beautiful game). Maybe even a "Band of the Red hand" mod.

And while I understand your answer I still don't think it explains why I would lose (although I have the suspicsion it has to do with anticipation and famliarity with past games which are similar.
There are three roads to ruin: by gambling, which is the quickest; through women, which is the most pleasurable; and through taking the advice of experts, which is the most certain. -de Gaulle

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Dragonking wrote: Most bad players don't understand that this game is not only about attacking enemy... sometimes better wait for good conditions, retreat and regroup or set up a trap...
I would suggest this is because most players play campaign first, then move on to multiplayer.

Campaign generally forces an aggressive play style on you because of the limited number of turns. Its only natural to carry that habit with you, at first, when you start playing multiplayer...

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appleide
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Post by appleide »

Hmm, I am good at "grand" tactical situations. eg, you have 10 units , which are 1 mermen, 5 spearman, 1 Mage, 1 pikeman, 1 cavalry, 1 merman warrior, instead of thinking "this guy moves here 5 hexes away from the enemy, and use the first strike ability to kill this cavalry", I'd go "send these two fish men into their superior water army, lure them onto the sand, and kill them all with my land forces.

But when the luck goes against me badly, (eg, 6 spearman failed to wound a fencer once), I'd give up my tactics and go "berserk" because I get kinda angry at the computer's maths. that means charging down as hard as i could to the opponent leader, caring only minimally about terrain. (That means I still wont leave my spearman in the swamp, etc, but I probably wouldn't give a damn about him in grass attacking the orchish warlord in the castle)...

Does that make me a beginner or advanced? (Trying to show that there is also "somewhere in the middle")
Why did the fish laugh? Because the sea weed.

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Dragonking
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Post by Dragonking »

irrevenant wrote:
Dragonking wrote: Most bad players don't understand that this game is not only about attacking enemy... sometimes better wait for good conditions, retreat and regroup or set up a trap...
I would suggest this is because most players play campaign first, then move on to multiplayer.

Campaign generally forces an aggressive play style on you because of the limited number of turns. Its only natural to carry that habit with you, at first, when you start playing multiplayer...
Oh it's noatural on MP too - you have to be as agressive as possible to take more villages than opponent.
But I was talking not about agressive play style, but about attaking no matter what happens - that is _big_ diffrence.

Also people need to get used to fact that luck in this game is really random - you have to know when you can 'force' your luck a little, or when you should just think about worst possibile scenario.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

appleide wrote:Hmm, I am good at "grand" tactical situations. eg, you have 10 units , which are 1 mermen, 5 spearman, 1 Mage, 1 pikeman, 1 cavalry, 1 merman warrior, instead of thinking "this guy moves here 5 hexes away from the enemy, and use the first strike ability to kill this cavalry", I'd go "send these two fish men into their superior water army, lure them onto the sand, and kill them all with my land forces.

But when the luck goes against me badly, (eg, 6 spearman failed to wound a fencer once), I'd give up my tactics and go "berserk" because I get kinda angry at the computer's maths. that means charging down as hard as i could to the opponent leader, caring only minimally about terrain. (That means I still wont leave my spearman in the swamp, etc, but I probably wouldn't give a damn about him in grass attacking the orchish warlord in the castle)...

Does that make me a beginner or advanced? (Trying to show that there is also "somewhere in the middle")
It makes you better than some, worse than others--which was I believe your point. In your hypothetical situation, I would never put water units on land--or if I did, it would be to lure your units onto sand while My army kills them :)

I need to multiplayer on-line more...
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this goes for they're/their/there as well

Noy
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Post by Noy »

appleide wrote: Does that make me a beginner or advanced? (Trying to show that there is also "somewhere in the middle")
No, that makes you tomsik...

;)

player
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Post by player »

its really hard to tell,,,others are juz acting...


but most of noobs do lots of units of the same kind(like all mages),,
also they dont use terrains(even on fighting without a certain reason other than to attack with low deffence),,,and on multiplayer, they have 5 gpv,200% xp(notr all)


most of all,,,you dont havve to think well to beat them?(kidding even though seriously)
-jew

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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Tactical skill does not make an expert. Take me, for instance. I'm still a powerful enough tactician to get no-losses games against the AI, but I'm really not that good at MP...

Knowing where your units should be, what to recruit, and how to engage in a battle is what makes an expert. The AI is mediocre at recruiting and at unit placement, but what really makes it terrible is that it doesn't know how to engage in a battle properly. It's really strategic; the same units can win or lose a battle in one turn if one player has started the battle improperly.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Tactical skill does not make an expert. Take me, for instance. I'm still a powerful enough tactician to get no-losses games against the AI, but I'm really not that good at MP...

Knowing where your units should be, what to recruit, and how to engage in a battle is what makes an expert.
yes, this is a skill unto itself.

another difference is if you really know the units your opponent has, and from that you can predict what they will probably do, that makes you really good. Planning ahead also goes in that category.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

im the one you think of
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Post by im the one you think of »

i think one of the most important traits of a good player is to work well with teammates
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

The best way to work with teammates is to dictate all their moves to them. :lol: Because they're usually total newbies. :lol:
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