What seperates the best players from the newbies?

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Inuyasha
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What seperates the best players from the newbies?

Post by Inuyasha » November 26th, 2005, 10:11 am

I read this in the Faction Observations thread, and have been wondering, what seperates a really good player from a newbie or intermediate player? Is it good tactical skills, knowing when to attack and not to attack, overall strategic plan, effective countering or what? After a certain point, is it just intuition about what the right move is or being able to feel out the random number generator? I consider myself a pretty good player and have been playing on and off since 0.8x, but I'm wondering what people think makes a good player.
Noy wrote:
use less wrote: And I just love it when people judge by the number of the posts or date registration. So cute.
I'm looking forward meeting you and all of those i-know-how-to-beat-ya-n00b players.
What you might not realize is that most of us play a lot of Wesnoth, and since the community is quite small, the best players tend to gravitate towards each other. Very very very rarely are new players able to compete against experts. Most of the time they just get splattered as experts leverage their knowledge of the game to crush them. Thats even more so against Undead which are likely one of the most difficult factions to play with... which leads me and others to be all the more skeptical about your claim that you will give us an education.

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Tomsik
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Post by Tomsik » November 26th, 2005, 10:22 am

I think most important is to knowwhen to attack and not to attack and recruting proper units.

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JW
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Post by JW » November 26th, 2005, 10:31 am

I'll tell you one thing that makes a noob: no sense of terrain or purpose of units. Example: Using a Dwarvish Guardsman on Grassland to attack a Fencer on Castle.

Another thing that makes a noob player: no sense of alignment, abilities, or CTK. Example: Using chaotic Wolf Riders with low hp to attack lawful Spearmen during the day.

One thing that makes a pro player: effective use of ZoC.

There's shittons more, but it would be a ginormous post...

Inuyasha
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Post by Inuyasha » November 26th, 2005, 10:39 am

JW wrote:I'll tell you one thing that makes a noob: no sense of terrain or purpose of units.
My favorite pet peev is the noobs who attack their opponents with an army of scouts.
JW wrote: There's shittons more, but it would be a ginormous post...
By all means, post away when you have the time. :)

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Dragonking
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Post by Dragonking » November 26th, 2005, 11:18 am

Inuyasha wrote:
JW wrote:I'll tell you one thing that makes a noob: no sense of terrain or purpose of units.
My favorite pet peev is the noobs who attack their opponents with an army of scouts.
AI tactic, eh? ;-)

Most bad players don't understand that this game is not only about attacking enemy... sometimes better wait for good conditions, retreat and regroup or set up a trap...
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Tux2B
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Post by Tux2B » November 26th, 2005, 11:55 am

You must also get used to the fact that you win when you kill the leader of your ennemy.
"There are two kind of campaign strategies : the good and the bad ones. The good ones almost always fail because of unforeseen consequences that make the bad ones succeed." -- Napoleon

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Post by toms » November 26th, 2005, 1:01 pm

Good players(I am not very good, but I like it :wink: )should look at give care to all this points:
Resistance
Defense
schedules
movement(!)
healing(villages AND units)
Get every XP point you can get without losses(even to highest level units)

This seems easy but it isn´t. Don´t forget to be perfect at all....:P
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Post by Noy » November 26th, 2005, 9:04 pm

I agree with most of these points... but there is one that I think really sets some people apart. I think there is a level that expert players reach where separation of skill doesn't really produce anymore noticible gain. The players know that luck will decide the outcome of the battle. I think the best players out there gain the ability of foresight... to understand the implications of each of their moves, and how they affect the battlefield. They can predict the probable outcome of the next turn, and play accordingly. Thats the mark of an expert.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

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Oreb
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Post by Oreb » November 26th, 2005, 9:27 pm

my taking is launching 4 waves and usually sitting for 5 turns accumulating my gold so i can kill them off while they struggle with the the first 4 waves
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unsung
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Post by unsung » November 27th, 2005, 2:16 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
JW wrote:I'll tell you one thing that makes a noob: no sense of terrain or purpose of units.
My favorite pet peev is the noobs who attack their opponents with an army of scouts.
JW wrote: There's shittons more, but it would be a ginormous post...
By all means, post away when you have the time. :)
try a battle line of drake gliders with 30% xp.

The fool made the elf oponent so powerful I had no chance of winning.

THe most important hin gis knowing to take risks.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov » November 27th, 2005, 10:43 pm

One thing I have noticed that appears to mark the lass able players is a tendency to excessive aggression. I could well be wrong about this, but it appears that some players feel compelled to attack with as many units as possible each turn.
This leads to slightly ridiculous situations. I remember at one point having three Trolls comfortably set up in mountains and being repeatedly attacked from plains by seemingly scuicidal elvish fighters. (needless to say, no elves survived and I came out of the fight with two Troll Warriors and a Rocklobber. :D)

It seems that rather then basing their tactics around such things as terrain and the day/night cycle, some newbies simply apply their favorite tactics regardless.
So a naturally defensive newbie will set up their lines wherever they wish, rather then where the terrain is suitable.
One the other hand, a naturally aggressive newbie will attack whatever enemy units are in range whenever they are in range, rather then setting up favorable cricumstances beforehand (i.e. waiting for day/night or consolidating reinforcements to gain a numeric advantage) or targeting isolated or damaged units.

This is only from my observations. So it could be totally incorrect.
I would be interested to know, do other people notice this sort of thing as well?

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JW
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Post by JW » November 28th, 2005, 12:38 am

Noy wrote:The [expert] players know that luck will decide the outcome of the battle. I think the best players out there gain the ability of foresight... to understand the implications of each of their moves, and how they affect the battlefield. They can predict the probable outcome of the next turn, and play accordingly. Thats the mark of an expert.
That's the mark of an expert in any field I would argue.

I think he wants to know specific tactics that experts and noobs use to gain a better understanding of not only the game, but of the people replying. =)
Inuyasha wrote:
JW wrote: There's shittons more, but it would be a ginormous post...
By all means, post away when you have the time. :)
An expert will:

1) Recruit accordingly to best
-a) counter the enemy faction (e.g. pierce units for drakes, fire for undead)
-b) counter specific units on the field (e.g. Elvish Archer v. Cavalryman)
-c) take advantage of terrain (both defense and movement)
-d) obtain and hold villages quickly

2) Use all of these to his/er advantage:
-a) time of day
-b) resistancies
-c) special abilities (e.g. leadership, poison)
-d) terrain
-e) quality OR quantity of units (depending on situation)
-f) Zone of Control
-g) advance heal
-h) high % attacks

3) Avoid:
-a) fighting to an opponents strength (if possible)
-b) situations where one bad combat while turn the tide of the game (if possible)
-c) recruiting only one type of unit







And that's all I can think of right now. I'm hungry. =)

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Dragonking
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Post by Dragonking » November 28th, 2005, 1:13 am

JW wrote:1) Recruit accordingly to best
-a) counter the enemy faction (e.g. pierce units for drakes, fire for undead)
-b) counter specific units on the field (e.g. Elvish Archer v. Cavalryman)
-c) take advantage of terrain (both defense and movement)
-d) obtain and hold villages quickly
Also chosing where to recruit is important thing, this seems to counts in 'd', but can be valid also in death-or-victory situations.
JW wrote: 2) Use all of these to his/er advantage:
-a) time of day
-b) resistancies
-c) special abilities (e.g. leadership, poison)
-d) terrain
-e) quality OR quantity of units (depending on situation)
-f) Zone of Control
-g) advance heal
-h) high % attacks
-i) upkeep and lvl0 units
-j) how to build defence line from units with diffrent traits (resilient in most precious places etc..)
JW wrote: 3) Avoid:
-a) fighting to an opponents strength (if possible)
-b) situations where one bad combat while turn the tide of the game (if possible)
-c) recruiting only one type of unit
-d)attacking meele units with meele units and ranged units with ranged units
-e)letting enemy chose battlefield

If I forgot about something please add it.
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unsung
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Post by unsung » November 28th, 2005, 3:17 pm

Ive noticed that most bad players follow the examples of the french in the middle ages: They let me find terrain that I want, then just attack me when I'm ready for them.


like that time with the gliders..... and the other guy who attacked me with trolls in water when I was in the mountains and forest.


I'm overly agressive in MP, and don''t stop to consider my turns. if I took more than 30 seconds to think, I suspect I'd win the majority of my matches, rather than losing after gradually losing my units and being put on the defensive.


Anoithe rimportant thing is knowing how to countetr the enemy faction and units.

Especially th eberskerkers and ulserkers, wjhich in the hands of th emost people amount to:

mmm.... free xp.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

King Albrecht
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Post by King Albrecht » November 29th, 2005, 1:10 pm

unsung wrote: if I took more than 30 seconds to think, I suspect I'd win the majority of my matches, rather than losing
:roll:

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