Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

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otzenpunk
Posts: 104
Joined: February 11th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Location: Hamburg / Germany

Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by otzenpunk »

Hello, when I played NR at first a couple of time ago, I struggled in this scenario. There seem to be two recommended strategies:

1. Rush to the northwest with your heroes and snipe the blue leader, then let the other armies come to you. I've tried that, maybe twice iirc, but both times the six angry trolls killed one of my heroes immediately after I eliminated their boss. Also, there seems to be no practical defense line there afterwards, where you've got significant terrain advantage. So I abandoned this plan.

2. Fortify in the mountains in the west, wear down the rush of the trolls and clean up the mess afterwards. I don't like this idea particularly either, because except your dwarves (and later drakes), nobody can really move there, it's difficult to retreat wounded heroes, when they've experienced an unlucky turn, it's crowded, and even more when the drakes arrive exactly behind your lines.

So I figured out a third strategy, and now playing NR again, I was able to replicate it easily. The plan is to recall two keeps of mostly high level units (and probably two fresh fighters) and immediately move everybody to the forested peninsula in the east, where Hidel is going to appear later on. That's a little bit tricky, because elves and mages are pretty bad at crossing mountains, and the green trolls are coming fast, but it's managable. Of course, dwarves aren't very good at defending forest tiles, but there are a couple of villages and hills as well, and most of the trolls are going to stand in the water basically defenseless. Another advantage is, that Krash is going to reenter the battle at the opposite site of the map, and his unexperienced troops are free to roam around, earn them lots of money for the upcoming scenario and get some nice experience by killing a bunch of undefended troll leaders.

Bonus: I really f*cking hate this concept of immortal mages. It would probably be ok to have them resurrected for a limited number of times, just in case they die, or that you can 'sacrifice' them, when you're really in trouble. But abusing the inability of the AI to realise that it's totally useless to kill them again and again feels kind of like cheating to me. So here we go: No mages were harmed in this scenario. :eng:

So I'd really like to know, what better players than me think about it, if it's really kinda new or already well known in the past, if it's worth to try out on higher difficulty levels than 'challenging' as well, or if it simply wouldn't work out against heavier opposition for one or another reason.
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Sadaharu
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Re: Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by Sadaharu »

I don't know about being a better player than you, but I remember that the first time I played this was on BfW 1.10 years ago when Dwarvish Lords still could throw two hatchets instead of one so (being still inexperienced) I simply recalled the whole lot of Lords I had and a few human units and holed up in the mountain bunker.
In later games (from 1.12 onwards Lords have been able to throw only one hatchet per combat) I have usually succeeded with the northwest rush tactic.
Zlex, Elenia, Ro'Arthian and Abhai should all have the troll leader within reach because he moves southeast to occupy the enarest village (right after calling you a suckerτ…). Eryssa, Ro'Sothian and Camerin should be right behind. All of them spawn without recruiting.
Then, from Turn 2 onwards, you bring out every single Dwarvish Lord (or Steelclad) you can afford. With the two priests to heal them (and provide illumination) you should be able to hold the oncoming trolls or at least slow them down enough for your main characters to finish the first batch of troll recruits and then redistribute them to assist against the other troll leaders' teams.

Moving east to the forests might be interesting, but the gold bonus you get from rushing the NW trolls and then turning to sweep up the others is better, I think.
wesnothpoet
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Joined: March 26th, 2020, 3:34 pm

Re: Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by wesnothpoet »

I just played through this scenario on Nightmare, and with all the loyal troops maxed out, the assassination attempt succeeds almost every time with no loss of troops. There are four units that can reach the blue leader on Turn 2: Zlex, Abhai, Elenia and Ro'Arthian. Of these, Zlex and Abhai very likely survive any retaliation attacks during the day and can therefore be used to shield the remaining units.

My strategy was to assassinate the blue leader and kill the remaining blue troops on Turn 3, then attack the green trolls as soon as possible near the mountains mid-North. I had Tallin and Elyssa hide in the north-west corner (Elyssa since she is very fragile to troll attacks). Since enemies are drawn to Tallin, this makes most of the grey and purple trolls move up the west valley. At the top of the valley I placed my two invincible mages, who easily entertain 10-15 trolls every turn (while dying in the process...) This allowed me to kill the green trolls and set up a defensive line for the remaining trolls in time. I killed all leaders by turn 25 without a single loss of life, apart from a few drakes (and the mages...)

To be fair I haven't tried the strategy of the OP. There are a few scenarios in which the best strategy is to hide in a small area, but I think there are a few disadvantages: 1) not assassinating the blue leader means he will easily recruit 25-30 more trolls; 2) you will hold less villages and therefore have worse income; and 3) it will likely take longer to finish the scenario (and in Eastern Flank you need all the gold you can get).
otzenpunk
Posts: 104
Joined: February 11th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Location: Hamburg / Germany

Re: Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by otzenpunk »

wesnothpoet wrote: November 17th, 2021, 7:10 am I just played through this scenario on Nightmare, and with all the loyal troops maxed out, the assassination attempt succeeds almost every time with no loss of troops. There are four units that can reach the blue leader on Turn 2: Zlex, Abhai, Elenia and Ro'Arthian. Of these, Zlex and Abhai very likely survive any retaliation attacks during the day and can therefore be used to shield the remaining units.
Yeah, I guess, when I played NR for the first time, I didn't have Abhai, because I somehow missed him. I also hadn't the Rod of Justice on Zlex to zap the troll leader, who is not unlikely to survive the first round of attacks under these circumstances and then is going to punch back, most likely on Elenia, or on anyone seriously injured enough by his troll buddies.

Anyway, I didn't mean to say this strategy generally doesn't work or is extremely luck dependent. Obviously it works, because it's the standard strategy. That was just the reason why I got into this alternative way to solve this scenario in the first place, which I like since then, because "never change a winning strategy".

Also, as I mentioned, I hate this "invincible mages" stuff, and didn't let them die a single time in this one, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to withstand the full troll assault in the open plains without having the mages permanently distracting 10–15 trolls at a time. Although on higher difficulties, it's probably gonna be impossible to pass on this huge advantage, because it's priced in the balance of things by the authors, right?
To be fair I haven't tried the strategy of the OP. There are a few scenarios in which the best strategy is to hide in a small area, but I think there are a few disadvantages: 1) not assassinating the blue leader means he will easily recruit 25-30 more trolls; 2) you will hold less villages and therefore have worse income; and 3) it will likely take longer to finish the scenario (and in Eastern Flank you need all the gold you can get).
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You're probably right. (And I am certainly not fit to prevail at nightmare level at all.) Although I'd probably counter point 3 with the lower defense the trolls enjoy in the water, so that you're technically able to kill more of them in the same time than in the plains or even hills or mountains. After all I finished at turn 19 on Challenging, without 'mage cheating', and certainly wasted at least one turn, because I sent too many drakes to the NW in the beginning and needed to get them all the way down to the SW to kill the last leader (and level my loyal fire drake).

In my solution, the drakes took a big chunk of the villages though, so you're right, that Tallin's finishing bonus was surely less than usual, and this could of course lead his faction to become unsustainable in Eastern Flank on higher difficulty levels. I don't know. On the other hand, having a large treasury for Krash in Eastern Flank wasn't bad either, because this enabled the drake army on their own (+the Gryphon and Elenia as healer) to occupy the southern shore with all the mountains and forests etc., and after levelling some units to conquer the island and sweep southwestwards over all the villages.
wesnothpoet
Posts: 23
Joined: March 26th, 2020, 3:34 pm

Re: Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by wesnothpoet »

otzenpunk wrote: November 19th, 2021, 9:42 pm Yeah, I guess, when I played NR for the first time, I didn't have Abhai, because I somehow missed him. I also hadn't the Rod of Justice on Zlex to zap the troll leader, who is not unlikely to survive the first round of attacks under these circumstances and then is going to punch back, most likely on Elenia, or on anyone seriously injured enough by his troll buddies.
I actually didn't understand where to find Abhai either the first time, but people talked about someone called Abhai being useful in Settling Disputes, so I went back and explored The Pursuit until I found him...
Also, as I mentioned, I hate this "invincible mages" stuff, and didn't let them die a single time in this one, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to withstand the full troll assault in the open plains without having the mages permanently distracting 10–15 trolls at a time. Although on higher difficulties, it's probably gonna be impossible to pass on this huge advantage, because it's priced in the balance of things by the authors, right?
I definitely understand why you and others hate the invincible mages, since it feels a lot like cheating. I also like introducing my own set of rules (such as no save-loads). In this case, I view it as part of the campaign design, something that as a player you are allowed to exploit. I'm not sure I have the energy to go back and play the campaign on nightmare without having an invincible mage dying a single time (it would definitely make the whole campaign a *lot* harder).
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You're probably right. (And I am certainly not fit to prevail at nightmare level at all.) Although I'd probably counter point 3 with the lower defense the trolls enjoy in the water, so that you're technically able to kill more of them in the same time than in the plains or even hills or mountains. After all I finished at turn 19 on Challenging, without 'mage cheating', and certainly wasted at least one turn, because I sent too many drakes to the NW in the beginning and needed to get them all the way down to the SW to kill the last leader (and level my loyal fire drake).

In my solution, the drakes took a big chunk of the villages though, so you're right, that Tallin's finishing bonus was surely less than usual, and this could of course lead his faction to become unsustainable in Eastern Flank on higher difficulty levels. I don't know. On the other hand, having a large treasury for Krash in Eastern Flank wasn't bad either, because this enabled the drake army on their own (+the Gryphon and Elenia as healer) to occupy the southern shore with all the mountains and forests etc., and after levelling some units to conquer the island and sweep southwestwards over all the villages.
As you guess, on nightmare Tallin's troops are pretty much essential to beat Eastern Flank. I think it's very important to hold the southern island, and later use it as a springboard to attack the enemy stronghold, but I could not figure out a way to hold the southern island without a lot of dwarf lords (the drakes die too easily).
otzenpunk
Posts: 104
Joined: February 11th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Location: Hamburg / Germany

Re: Northern Rebirth – Stolen Gold: New(?) Strategy

Post by otzenpunk »

wesnothpoet wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 10:37 am I view it as part of the campaign design, something that as a player you are allowed to exploit. I'm not sure I have the energy to go back and play the campaign on nightmare without having an invincible mage dying a single time
Well, tbh I had no such strict rule for me in place. Especially in The Pursuit, it's pretty dumb not using the immortal mages, because they're probably still on level 2 and easily be killed by Malifor's retaliation. And if you try to soften him up before, you might accidentally "kill" him with a dwarf lord or Camerin, and that doesn't work either. But apart from that, I treated the mages just as I would any other loyal white mages. Don't remember if any one of them maybe died once more during the campaign, but not in Stolen Gold or Eastern Flank.
As you guess, on nightmare Tallin's troops are pretty much essential to beat Eastern Flank. I think it's very important to hold the southern island, and later use it as a springboard to attack the enemy stronghold, but I could not figure out a way to hold the southern island without a lot of dwarf lords (the drakes die too easily).
As I mentioned, I can't say anything about nightmare. But in my case on challenging the drake losses were actually pretty low. I strictly separated my troops, because it annoys me af, when units from my different factions are standing in each other's way. At first, I even exchanged the keeps, so Tallin recruited one keep half dwarf/half human and moved out, Krash didn't recruit in turn 1 at all and just moved besides Tallin's keep and started to recall/recruit there at turn 2 after Tallin recalled lots of dwarf lords in Krash's former keep. Doesn't waste too much time, because Krash's troops would've had to move southwards anyway. Then the dwarves first took Krash's villages for Tallin, to generate positive income for a couple more turns and enable him to recall a bunch of more dwarves, until the upkeep matched his income.

In the end I had three front segments. In the northern mountains the dwarves, backed by the quick mage to heal, and Eryssa. The humans including the liches, Camerin, Rod-Zlex and slow mage as healer held the gap between the river, the forest and this mountain triangle. And south went the drakes. As I said, Krash made a lot of money in Stolen Gold and started with about 550 gps, which made up for quite a lot of drakes, and with heavy use of leadership and Elenia as healer I actually got more level-ups than casualties. Time of day favored me as well, because the first wave of orcs came into reach right at dawn.
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