Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

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revolting_peasant
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Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by revolting_peasant »

Suppose you're playing a (campaign) scenario where you don't have a whole lot of gold. And suppose also you've recalled L>=2 units if you had them and wanted them. But - you also have some L1 units from previous scenarios. An L1 that's almost-leveled is usually a good recall prospect, assuming you can guarantee it won't be killed immediately, since that's an L2 which gets healed after the first or second attack.

So - let's suppose you have some L1 units with a lot less than the necessary leveling experience: Not very little, but some: X%. The alternative, of course, is recruiting. If the unit cost is about 20 Gold already, then again there's no dilemma (ignoring the issue of traits). So let's assume it's a unit that costs N < 20 Gold . And let's also ignore recruiting of other units and their costs.

In such cases - what criteria do you use to decide whether to spend 20-N more Gold on a recall, rather than recruiting and essentially declaring that unit's XP as sunk? Do you use some threshold formula?
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Kymille
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by Kymille »

It also depends on the scenario. If I think they don't have much chance of surviving then I definitely just recruit new ones.
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max_torch
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by max_torch »

Sometimes, if there are a lot of lvl2 enemies it can be worth recalling even an L1 that needs 16XP to level up - the point is that it's a unit that needs only one kill to level up. Especially resilient L1s like spearmen which have 42HP can even survive quite a beating and enjoy a level heal.
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lhybrideur
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by lhybrideur »

I would say it really depends on the cost of the units and its traits.
For example, if the unit is costing >15 Gold and it has traits that I am interested in, I would recall it instead of recruiting a unit with random traits. If it has the trait loyal, I will totally recall it, probably whatever the XP and cost of the unit XD
Otherwise, you have to find a trade-off btw the cost and the XP (if you have enough gold oc, if you can recall one unit and recruit 2, I would probably go for recruiting 2). Maybe that 19-Gold unit with 20XP is worth recalling, rather that recruiting a new one.
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max_torch
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by max_torch »

You still have to make sure to give more kills to the L1 units you recalled, otherwise there was no point. You have to make use of it's advancement to really make it worth it. Sometimes though, it attracts the enemy because the AI really prefers to kill units that have XP - it can be okay if it dies in a way which gave you a positional/tactical advantage (that you were able to exploit) so you don't have to feel too bad losing it.
Last edited by max_torch on September 30th, 2021, 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zrevnur
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by Zrevnur »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 28th, 2021, 1:25 pm Do you use some threshold formula?
In some scenarios it is possible to trade gold for XP. Like 'Isle of Anduin' in HttT. If I let the enemy have more villages it costs me gold but it will be able to recruit more units which I can then turn into more XP. Interestingly here the formula depends on the cost of the enemy units. If a grunt gives 12 XP and costs 12 gold we have a 1:1 relation. In practice it is not quite that simple of course but this kind of perspective can be a good starting point for making decisions.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by revolting_peasant »

Zrevnur wrote: September 30th, 2021, 1:14 amIn some scenarios it is possible to trade gold for XP.
So, generically, what would you say a recall XP percentage (or XP point) is worth in Gold? I mean, the entire difference is under 10 Gold anyway; would you pay, say, 5 Gold for 25% XP? 50% XP? 75% XP? (Of an L1 unit, so something between 30 and 50 XP typically)
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patience_reloaded
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by patience_reloaded »

I have a different take on the topic: I generally like to work with small, elite armies and with very low losses. Therefore, if I can recall a unit, I generally don't recruit one of the same type, no matter how low the xp is as long as it's not 0xp.The idea behind that is that if a unit has low xp, a fresh recruit would be unlikely to level up in this battle as well, so I need to store the little xp they get per battle in the same unit every time so that several scenarios later, it may finally advance. If I got a fresh recruit every time, I would never get a promoted one, so on the long run, I think it's worth it.
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by Zrevnur »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 30th, 2021, 8:55 pm
Zrevnur wrote: September 30th, 2021, 1:14 amIn some scenarios it is possible to trade gold for XP.
So, generically, what would you say a recall XP percentage (or XP point) is worth in Gold? I mean, the entire difference is under 10 Gold anyway; would you pay, say, 5 Gold for 25% XP? 50% XP? 75% XP? (Of an L1 unit, so something between 30 and 50 XP typically)
I dont think there is a general answer. The value of gold depends very much on the scenario (including the following scenarios). So from my POV its really impossible to give a general answer. Only in those "training" scenarios it is like I outlined in the previous post. Its also independent of percentages - the absolute amount of XP can be translated into gold to some degree. But even there there is no general simple answer. On some units XP is more valuable than on others. And getting XP close to max (so that the unit can be leveled up in the first clash in a difficult scenario) is sometimes particularly valuable. Then there is the 'elephant in the room': How important is it even that I level up units quickly? This differs a lot between scenarios. In some its all-important and in others it doesnt matter much.

I can however offer another simple perspective as a starting point for thinking about it: Leveled-up units also have gold costs. If we assume these to be balanced then the value of 1 XP (in gold) is roughly: cost_difference / xp_required.
So Elvish Scout (18 gold, 32 XP req) with 8 XP in recall list would be worth an extra 8 * (10 / 32) = 2.5 gold. So the whole scout is worth 20.5 gold and only costs 20 gold to recall.

And then there is a third (looking only at future scenarios) perspective. Also only a starting point for thinking about it. If I have a lvl 2 unit in the next scenario then this is an advantage. This can be quantified (also assuming gold costs for lvl 2 are balanced) as: lvl_2_gold_cost - recall_cost. So for the Elvish Scout with lvl_2_gold_cost of 28 this advantage is 8 gold. So 1 XP is then worth 8 gold / 32 XP = 0.25 gold / XP. So if I have that 8 XP Scout in the recall list it has a value of 18 + 8 * 0.25 = 20.
This is complicated by gold in this scenario not having the same value as gold in that future scenario. So a gold-value multiplier has to be added. If gold value is solely determined by the carry-over multiplier then this can be used. In the example case with 40% carry-over the 8 XP Scout would then for the next scenario have a value of 18 + (2 / 0.4) = 23 gold.
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by Mawmoocn »

I prefer recalls despite the huge gold advantage of more units on recruits.

First reason is unit type, sometimes you can only get a unit at a specific scenario (basically the branch on Heir to the Throne does this).
Gold value carryover system is flawed, you get a "penalty" for not using unspent gold if that gold came from 3 or more scenarios back. (Except on certain situations.)
In certain situations, you have so much gold you get confused on what should you recruit.
Sometimes, you recruit the wrong unit, you can't undo...... or get frustrated later that it it useless in future scenario.....
Lastly, attachment to units even if I get the wrong recall level up, at the very least, they were part of my game.

The other units I don't recall are recruits that have no "attachment", bad traits, wasn't memorable, can't live due to lack of units or hard scenario.

Despite playing Wesnoth for a decent amount, I don't have a favorite on what I should recruit besides a healer, some leader, at least 1 magical or marksman unit because all units are: weak, slow, and squishy hard to use.
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by Atreides »

If you are playing a campaign for the first time I suspect that it is always best to recall anything which has xp since you don't know what is coming up.
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by white_haired_uncle »

revolting_peasant wrote: September 28th, 2021, 1:25 pm Suppose you're playing a (campaign) scenario where you don't have a whole lot of gold. And suppose also you've recalled L>=2 units if you had them and wanted them. But - you also have some L1 units from previous scenarios.
My reply is rather off topic, but your description reminds me a of couple bad habits I have that I'm trying to work on.

If you recall your advanced (non-loyal) units first, and you need more than one turn of recruiting, you're wasting gold. Simply starting with loyal and low-level units, you may save enough on maintenance to be able to recruit/recall one more unit than if you recalled the L2s first.

You usually don't need to recruit/recall a full castle every turn until you're broke. Again, maintenance savings. And if you can get away with it, recalling after your opponent lets you know what you're up against.

As far as the actual question, I'd say it's way too complicated (too many possible scenarios, like traits, difficulty to advance, max level of unit, opponents recruiting) to say. Ignoring everything else, perhaps a simple rule of thumb would be recall premium compared to XP attained toward next level. For example, if I have a unit that costs 15 to recruit, I'd be paying 33% more to recall, so it had better have acquired 33% or more XP needed to advance. Of course I could shoot holes in this approach all day long, but it's a place to start before considering all the rest.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by revolting_peasant »

white_haired_uncle wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:36 am If you recall your advanced (non-loyal) units first, and you need more than one turn of recruiting, you're wasting gold. Simply starting with loyal and low-level units, you may save enough on maintenance to be able to recruit/recall one more unit than if you recalled the L2s first.
Yes, that's a valid point, I just wanted to take L2 recalls out of the space of possibilities. It is indeed poor economy to recall high-level units early.
white_haired_uncle wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:36 am so it had better have acquired 33% or more XP needed to advance.
Hmm. So, if my unit is, say, an Orcish Grunt (cost 12), you would expect 8/12 = 66% of the XP, which is 28 XP, or a little over 1 L1 kill (taking a kill as 1+8 XP). And for a Footpad, which costs 14, you would expect 6/14 = ~43% of the XP, which is ~15 XP, or 1.6 L1 kills. And for a Cavalryman, which costs 17, you would expect 3/17 = ~17% of XP, which is 7 XP, or nearly 1 L1 kill. The recalled grunt would need at least 4 L1 kills to advance; the Footpad would need 2 L1 kills; the Cavalryman would need slightly more than 4 L1 kills.

Is this your rough rationale?
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by white_haired_uncle »

revolting_peasant wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:23 pm
white_haired_uncle wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:36 am If you recall your advanced (non-loyal) units first, and you need more than one turn of recruiting, you're wasting gold. Simply starting with loyal and low-level units, you may save enough on maintenance to be able to recruit/recall one more unit than if you recalled the L2s first.
Yes, that's a valid point, I just wanted to take L2 recalls out of the space of possibilities. It is indeed poor economy to recall high-level units early.
white_haired_uncle wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:36 am so it had better have acquired 33% or more XP needed to advance.
Hmm. So, if my unit is, say, an Orcish Grunt (cost 12), you would expect 8/12 = 66% of the XP, which is 28 XP, or a little over 1 L1 kill (taking a kill as 1+8 XP). And for a Footpad, which costs 14, you would expect 6/14 = ~43% of the XP, which is ~15 XP, or 1.6 L1 kills. And for a Cavalryman, which costs 17, you would expect 3/17 = ~17% of XP, which is 7 XP, or nearly 1 L1 kill. The recalled grunt would need at least 4 L1 kills to advance; the Footpad would need 2 L1 kills; the Cavalryman would need slightly more than 4 L1 kills.

Is this your rough rationale?
I agree with your percentages, but I think your math is a little off in a couple places (particularly for the grunt, I get 28XP = 3.5 L1 kills, with just over 1 left to advance).

For a grunt, I'm paying a huge premium to recall vs just recruiting a brand new one. Therefore, in my primitive first-pass ignoring everything else calculation, he'd better be darn close to advancing. Not going to recall (vs recruit) many grunts.

For a footpad, I'm paying less of a premium, but still rather hefty, so he wouldn't need to be as close to advancing as the grunt (in relative terms), but I'm still going to require him to have made decent progress. Might recall maybe half of footpads.

For a cavalryman, the premium is negligible, so I might as well pay it for just about any XP. Most cavs would get recalled.

For a ghost, which costs 20, there is no premium at all, so even 1 XP is enough to make recalling worth it.
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Re: Recruit vs Recall of L1 units with partial experience

Post by kjn »

There are more factors than only XP that should go into this decision. Traits also matter. Recalling means that you are guaranteed a set of (hopefully) desirable traits. Perhaps the most important one here is the Quick one, since it is operationally useful in a set of circumstances, like to grab villages, reach or get past a choke point quickly, or be more effective as a scout in a scenario with fog of war. But this will probably only amount to a single unit or two. A guaranteed quick unit can be leveraged into more gold at the end of the scenario, or more income early in the scenario.

I agree that the marginal cost of recall over recruit matters a lot here, but also the ease with which the unit can gain XP. The value of 1 XP on an Elvish shaman is much higher than 1 XP on an Elvish archer. This is partly because the shaman requires a lower amount of XP to reach the next level, partly because an Elvish shaman has a much harder time to gain XP due to their much lower relative damage output.
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