SX RPG Expert Strategies?

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roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Roi Danton proudly presents ... Wizard of War, Expert Death Mode, Solo

The most difficult thing about this map is figuring out which unit, resistances and weapons you want. This was about my fifth or so attempt at playing this solo, already tried unsuccessfully on the last two weekends. After I figured everything out, it was actually quite a smooth ride, no major obstacles and I finished this rather quickly in a single afternoon, just under 5 hours.

Choice of Unit:

On this map, you need high pierce, impact, fire and arcane - cold and blade are not so important. You can actually get away with putting nothing into cold if you manage to get past the undead quickly and are strong enough to get into the armor chamber. Once you're past the temple, you won't need blade or cold anymore.

As a preparation, I actually played this map on beginner difficulty with a bunch of different units, just go them to max level and looked at how many armor slots they would get. There were two units that I really liked: the Wose and the Paladin. I tried the Wose last weekend, this victory is with the Paladin.

Let's have a more detailed look at both of them:

Wose:
  • 17 armor slots
  • Comes with Regenerates, so you'll save that 150 gold, which is especially important early on when cash is so limited
  • Needs Cave Explorer and Agility
  • Slow, but you can get 1 mp on all the important terrains
  • Can add bersek to the built-in weapon, buy non-magical torch, add magical and rage - all as initial purchases. Then focus on strikes and damage and you have a strong killing machine.
  • Initial resistances great for a bersek unit.
Paladin:
  • 16 armor slots
  • Needs Cave Explorer, but no Agility.
  • Fast, but cannot get 1 mp on all the important terrains (see below)
  • Need to buy Regenerates
  • Built-in weapon can't be upgraded on first turn.
I tried the Wose first - it's a great unit that gets you started really quickly. It offers a great flexibility on weapons - you can either immediately add bersek to the built-in weapon, or buy a raged weapon first, add bersek later, etc. With a raged fire weapon and minimum resistance upgrades, you can also quickly clear-out the entire undead caves. However, late in the game, the built-in weapon's low strikes really become a problem and it's also expensive to make this unit reasonably fast.

With the Paladin, you can't terrain-train all the important terrains - you especially have to make a decision between training shallow water or swamp. Training sand is mandatory or you won't get the green cloak anytime soon. I finally decided to train swamp (no shallow water or fungus) and kill the saurian boss first to get the green cloak.

Weapons:

From my experience with Temple of Bones, adding weapon specials as first upgrade can be really powerful - if your unit has a strong built-in weapon, immediately add magical and rage to it and you will significantly save on turns. Buying a torch and adding magical and rage could make sense, too. Well, the Paladin's built-in weapon can't be upgraded with specials - so I bought a bersek sword. Because it later gets a super strong arcane weapon, you don't need any fire weapon. On this map, you need a cold weapon - but you don't want to upgrade it until very late in the game.

If you buy the bersek sword in the shop (instead of adding bersek to a strong built-in weapon), you need more damage and strike upgrades because the weapon's stats are rather poor. But you also save a lot of gold compared to adding bersek.

Lawful, neutral or chaotic:

In the end, you really want to pick-up the cursed ring to become a chaotic undead creature. Some of the late-game bosses have poison and/or drains. I tried playing as lawful, and while it's great to deal more damage during the day when they're weak, you're also too weak during the night when they're strong. When you're taking too much retaliation damage, increasing your own damage is often the right thing to counter it. Being chaotic does exactly that: when they deal more retaliation damage to you, you will also deal more damage to them.

However, unless your unit comes with the 'leadership' trait, you really want to start as neutral then pick-up the ring later. Purchasing fearless early on is simply too expensive.

Strategy:

So with a unit that starts with only a bersek blade, but gets a strong arcane weapon later, it's best to kill the saurians first. Picking up the red riding hood to get skirmisher also helps later on in the undead cave - and the green cloak will fix your movement cost problems.

Initial Stats:

Horsemen, Warrior Cave Explorer Neutral
86 hp, 11 moves
28-6 spear (built-in)
23-7 bersek blade
29-7 iceblade
7-3 net

Walkthrough:

Watching my replay again, commenting on important things ....

First, I went to the small caves south and west of the starting keep - upgrading moves to 12 while passing the starting shop - then cleared out the southern undead caves. Don't immediately run east to that southernmost shop - there are a lot of blue potions in those caves and some chests which will set you up with some decent gold.

I intentionally did not pick up the bow of the hunter - it's really not such a good idea with a unit that has 4 mp and such poor defense in water. There are similar items in the saurian castle and you don't really need it that urgently early on.

On turn 15, I fully upgraded my resistances - 60 arcane (built-in), 25 blade, 50 fire, 75 pierce/impact, 0 cold. You really want to do this early because it will significantly reduce the amount of damage that you take during combat.

Pushed my way into the saurian castle, got the green cloak and the chests. I also did not get Regenerates until turn 24 - it's really not necessary earlier due to level-ups and blue and yellow potions. Speaking of yellow potions - you really want to drink them all, even if you're already at full health. Don't save them for later, you won't come back - but they permanently increase your max hp. I bought almost no hp in the shop because drinking all the yellow potions already yields some ~350 max hp on turn 100.

Turn 30, picked up skirmisher cloak, then ran back to shop to upgrade with over 700 gold. It really pays off to get the skirmisher cloak as early as possible, makes it so much easier. Added magical rage to the built-in arcane sword. This allows me to immediately go to the undead leader after killing the Saurian boss, without first running to shop to upgrade.

Turn 32, two blue potions and the Saurian Blackmage is dead. Running west to the undead keep (why is the wall only coming down when I kill the Saurian, not when I kill the Lich King first)?

Turn 34, the Lich King is dead (I don't think I've ever killed both leaders within just two turns!).

Turn 39, done clearing out the caves, built-in weapon now has 49-14, 188 hp.

Turn 41, the Necromancer is dead. Got dauntless first, not picking up that ring yet.

Turn 45, you must be able to easily kill that plant guard inside the cave where the cornucopia of fortune is - no blue potions or anything! Same thing for the Black Hydra that's guarding the cornucopia - that must be an easy kill as well! If you fail to easily kill any of these, re-check your resistances and damage - dauntless is required at this point to get 50% blade resistance on offense. It may not make sense to continue the game if you have any serious problems here (and can't easily fix by adding dauntless) because you will quickly face even stronger bosses. So this is a nice test of strength.

When soloing, it does not make sense to go into that cave opposite to the cornucopia - there's a single leadership item and a yellow potion inside, but you already have a leadership thing and it would take about 5 turns. So just skip that.

Turn 48, picked up the cursed ring, ran up north to kill the Demeneologist, then added slows to the bersek blade. Now at 60-16 / 56-14, 223 hp.

Turn 58, you can't easily kill those guards, but it's ok to attack them then let them hit you. Added slows to the arcane blade, now at 65-19, maxed out on strikes.

Turn 64, the Demon Sorceress is dead. now at 84-19, 261.

Turn 68, 89-19 is strong enough to simply walk through - and the Witchmaster is dead.

Turn 70, defensively killed the guard at the armor chamber. Couple of bosses coming, so I ran back to shop to upgrade. Now at 104-19.

Turn 80, 130-19 (156-19 at night) is strong enough to easily kill the Elder Wizard. Not going to waste a turn or two by going back to shop, picking up the necklace of protection, then pushing west.

Turn 91, with 1163 gold, I could get some nice boost on my weapons. Now at 155-19, 315 hp, 15 moves. With so much damage, finishing that Fire King is now a piece of cake.

Turn 96, "... with my last breath, I open the gates to hell !!"

Endgame:

Well, I also got here on my previous two attempts - but that was as far as I could get.

And here, the replay starts reporting OOS! "SYNC: In attack Giant Armor Spider (45,14) vs Paladin (46,14): the data source says the hit did 122 damage, while in-game calculations show the hit doing 120 damage (overriding data-source with in-game calculations)." This is immediately after turning on No Luck Mode.

Got the same OOS's on most other attacks, finally clicked "Ignore All", hoping that the replay runs till the end! /Edit: Luckily, it did!

Strategy-wise, it's now all about bumping damage. Added raged slow to the iceblade on turn 108. At this point, there are not too many enemies per turn - it's important to run around and use regeneration-healing as much as possible instead of spending money.

175-19 is strong enough to kill a guard at full health with a single blue potion - luckily, there are enough blue potions to kill all the guards. I reserved two of the yellow potions to kill the final boss, though.

Turn 114, there are just two fungolds and a spider in that cave, no chest???

Killing all the guards early is important. You can then stay inside that keep for several turns, rebuild stamina and then heal on the long run back to shop. Finally got 200-19 on turn 137 - the weapon now also has charge, that deals some ~40-50 effective damage after dreadful sight and resistances.

Still not quite good enough, though. Took a few more turns and on the next run to the shop, I could bump it to 209-19 - that's 252-19 at night.

Turned out that adding charge to the arcane sword made Darth Saul defend with the tentacle stick (136-16) and not with the paralyze touch (211-8). Makes quite a difference because I have 85% pierce resistance, but 95% arcane. Hitting it with the non-charged iceblade, the reloading blue worked, though.

Summary:

Well, this was a really fun map to play, I enjoyed it very much! Difficulty-wise - not sure whether that's not only due to my previous experience, though - I would even argue that Wizard of War is a bit easier than Temple of Bones.

In WoW2, you can basically finish the undead quickly, then entirely focus on fighting those fire demons. The occasional fire dragon is the only unit that has a strong melee blade attack and it's not too strong, so you get away with having low blade resistance - and you don't need cold. So you can get much higher arcane, fire, pierce and impact resistances. With all the items, I had 95% arcane, 85% fire/pierce/impact and 50% (35% on defense) cold/blade.

I also found it much easier to get into the armor chamber because there's that Ancient Ghost guarding it and not an Abyss Devil. The important difference is that even with low arcane resistance and no steadfast, you could still stand next to that Ancient Ghost and let it attack you, just like I did in this game, you'll survive while it's going to take severe damage so you can easily kill it next turn. To kill an Abyss Devil, you already need quite some decent resistances and if I remember correctly also much higher damage.
Last edited by roidanton on December 9th, 2013, 1:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

well,

i think that the next version will come with these changes (maybe not all at once ;)):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


- damage and strikes cost 25% more. enemies HP and all related values are adjusted.
(this will hopefully improve game-performance a lot and will even allow to add longer maps in fututre ;). Boss-HP are reduced by more than 30% (for higher stages))

- late game creeps (turn 170+ will recieve a small HP boost)

- loot system. killed bosses may drop items now. chance of having an item dropped my depend on players-in-game. 5 players= 100% loot chance, each less player gives -20% loot chance. this way every player may recieve the same amount of loot in a game. this is to balance low-player games, since these players start with more gold and may stack all loot on one, single unit (including gold-coins for example).

- focus weapon special will be altered to give +75% damage, both dealt and recieved in offense
(price +50 (=350))

- rangers get "hail-of-arrows" (attack lasts 2 turns) as additional special
(will replace marksman-special in shop-menu, Hail-of-Arrows can be added)
(price 250)

- precision cost reduction for rangers will get removed (precision special cost for rangers as much as for other ranged classes)

- bigger attack spells will automatically SLOW a target (minimum spell size for this: 150 mana, so the small "ball" wont do the trick. But with this magic users can slow enemies.)

- new attack spell option: 300 mana, SECOND strike. Magic users can perform a 2nd strike with any weapon.

- unslow-option for healing spell: For 50 mana the target will be unslowed.

- charge can be removed from weapons.
- hail-of-arrows can be removed from weapons.
(i think about to add an option to enable/disable charge and hail-of-arrow special, instead of removing them. this will make it very powerful (costs for the upgrades may rise significantly (about +75%) but also seems to be better than removing them.)


conclusion:
--------------
so just a few options to spend more mana.
attack spells get a serious upgrade
the "oops my weapons is now useless and the game is screwed - thanks to charge" -problem is solved.
ranged units get a boost, rangers may even now be a serious option for combat and may equal the Warrior (rangers will lose their cost-reduction on precision-special)

RANGER:
focus(1.75)+precision(x0.8 )+hail of arrows(x2.0)+blessing(x1.2)(+slow)(+25% leadership)=getting damage by factor 2, dealing damage factor: 4.2

WARRIOR:
magical(0.7)+rage(x3.0)+charge(x2.0)(+slow)(+ 25% leadership)= getting damage by Factor 3, dealing damage factor: 5.25


Rangers have to pay more for their upgrades though, although the Warrior needs to pay 250 gold ONCE.(and an ability point) to be able to add slow.
But Ranger have other good boni: more moves after a kill, reduced potion cost.
Ranger lost their cheap precision though and are still vulnerable to berserkers.
Warriors need more HP but also have 1 more Armor Slot.


about the new map: i decided to add a rather small and crispy map first. instead of a real biggie.
some fun for the online-players. but i will try to be as nasty as i can. as usual.

some enemies may get some changes, this will affect current maps in order to make them more interesting. small changes to existing maps as suggested by players.
(cantar may even recieve more changes, for example another ai-leader may get added :)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Oh, cool! Looking forward to re-play all the maps with these new changes once they're available. Choosing a ranged unit, of course.

About that new loot that enemies drop, is that "good stuff"? If I remember correctly, then you said something about them dropping weapons a while ago - but I don't think weapons would be that useful, too expensive to upgrade them with specials.

Removing marksmen is really a good idea - that's something where beginners can easily waste money on, not realizing that it's basically a waste of gold.

Also love the new ways to spend Mana on! That will make the Mage class much more fun to play. Second strike also fixes that problem that magic can only deal arcane, cold and fire damage - you could simply get a strong impact weapon, then use 2nd strike on it.

About that new healing spell, would that also remove poison? That would make it much easier to go lawful instead of picking up the cursed ring.

Regarding disabling or removing charge / hail of arrows, I don't you should allow disabling that on a per-attack basis - please don't do that on the highest difficulty setting, it would make the game too easy. Removing is another story - it would really make sense to remove charge, possibly for a small fee.

Love the idea of doing a smaller map first - that'd be something that could actually be played online with multiple people with some chance to actually finish it in one session.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

Just a raw overview about the loot

Loot:
-------
the loot that is dropped ranges from useful to not-always-useful
ALL items will be only dropped ONCE (though some items may be included twice or more often)
if an item is dropped and drawn again then coins will be dropped

- as most common coins can be dropped, coins can always be dropped 5,10,15 gold
god is always useful

- standard weapons: as good as gold. can be sold in shop for 30 bucks.
drawback: you must be able to carry them. maximum number of weapons that can be carried is 7.

- weapons with specials:
there will be weapons with common specials (dropped in the early game to add useful things to the inventory of the player.
and there will be extremely rare and valuaable weapons that include combos or specials that arent in the game. for example: magical-berserk or berserk-slow (if a cleric finds a berserk-slow sword he might be happy), or an "hail-of-arrows"-bow (for the non rangers)
or maybe even fully upgraded weapons (dropped in late game. depending on turn number).

many possibilities here.


- scrolls
scrolls can enhance many things. give another terrain-training-slot, reduce potion cost, increase DISCOUNT in shop, give another movementslot


- armor-items
armor is something that mus be handles carefully, but there is room for +5% items for blade, impact and pierce.
another very rare item gives another armor slot


- enhancement-items (rangng from potion over belts to rings):
classical upgrades +damage or + HP, +moves, +moves after kill
other upgrades wil increase maximum mana/stamina
increase mana/stamina recovery.

increase spell power. damage of spell get increased, healing-power of spells get increased etc.

regeneration-rate get increased

A leadership-item may get dropped



this is of course not complete or something.
just examples.


many things are possible. they will be no game-breakers but things you would like to have.
and in worst case its just some additional bucks. nobody wil be angry about that ;)




EDIT: man, i just see you report on WoW II - great stuff - love to read it :)
hehe, yes, then its probably really time for another small and crispy map. i'll try if i can make life hard for you (while staying in the boundaries of fairness of course. just by finding out some nice enemy combos ;))

the small maps have the usual problem that you cannot build a real threat in early game for a single unit. you can only try to make some wicked enemy combinations that may be better solved by two heroes instead of one. but i think i may come up with something ;)

at least it will be some fun to play - so who cares anyway



EDIT:
yeah, WOWII is easier than ToB.

i also learn as a designer, and i ignored (totally ignored when i made castle of cantar or evil dead) quite some things when i made the map (but at least i took some things into account).

from your descriptions i can read that the creeps could be made a bit stronger in very late game.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

btw, after some more calculations i have come to the conclusion that FOCUS (Factor 1.5) will stay as it is.

anyways, of course these are just ideas atm. although most of them are realized. but i will think a bit more about it :)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Regarding creep strength late in the game, I just did a little experiment ...

I reloaded the game on turn 95 - that was right before killing that Acamanthus Fire King - and kept that boss alive for another 30 turns. The first about 10 turns or so, I did not need any healing potions. But they got a bit stronger later. Had to run back to shop once during those 30 turns and net gained over 2000 gold. This allowed me to get about 50 damage, increasing my attack stats from about 150-19 to 200-19. Which means that I already crossed the victory target line for Darth Saul before leaving the temple.

There is a considerable difference in strength between those creeps inside and outside the temple. Between turn 100 and 130, it will also be significantly harder to grind gold outside the temple. That difference is so high that I think I can safely post this as strategy advise: do not kill the last boss inside the temple if your weapon's stats are lower than about 150-19 melee-arcane magical rage slows. About 170-19 should do fine, anything above 200-19 is great.

Victory target line for Darth Saul is about 200-19 with yellow and blue potions or 229-19 berserk slows on the berserk blade that you buy in the shop, with 369 total hp and full health at twilight. That effectively deals 25-17 blade (the 232-19 arcane blade would do 22-19) and it defends with 10-16 tentacle stab.

That is not strong enough to also kill those Abyss Devils, it actually took me another 10 turns to kill all the guards.

Based on these observations, it may actually be possible to win this map solo with a ranged unit, provided that you can make it heads-up with that Fire King until about turn 100 or so. That boss almost exclusively recruits creeps that can easily be killed by a ranged unit and - because you'd take less damage, you could even stay until turn 140, maybe even longer to gain strength. Resistances should probably be very high on arcane and fire, Inferno Drake maybe?

I think I'll try that next weekend ...
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Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

after some more thoughts... :

- rangers will not get focus AND hail-of-arrows, instead, they get hail-of-arrows specials which will replace focus (some oter details will also change, for example hail will be more expensive, but can be added)

ranger damage-deal factor=2(hail)x0.8(precision)x1.2(blessing)x1.25(leadership)= 2.4
damage get= 1 (normale damage)x 2 (hail)x 0.5 (slow) = 1

which more than enough and a truely good damage-deal/damage-get ratio.
add a time-of-day bonus to it and it is a fierce unit.

Focus will not be touched, so mages and rogues rely on good old focus.
mages got a small attack-spell-damage upgrade though.

So mages need their magic to get that damage-boost and smart gameplay with demons perhaps.


The Clerics are the lose a bit out on the damage side, since they cannot combine magical with slow-rage, so they want to stay with magical-rage perhaps. but need serious HP boost.

i think about allowing the CLERICS HEALING SPELL to override maximum HP.
(perhaps adding a new spell class), pretty much like a yellow potion.


since nearly all classes got boosted the rogues need also some kind of buff:
the roguewarrior get +1 move after kill
and the roguemage get a bonus on its movement-spell after purchasing the amber-amulett



btw, yay. i repaired my computer i got my data on :)
that means thee may be a release in some near time with the technical changes. but no new map.
most important thing here will be the increased damage/strike prices and the reduction of creep/enemy HP.

that should speed up the gameplay a lot. if someone is interested in playtesting . .would be great ;)
i woudl concentrate on a new map then. i have some ideas already.
even a small(er) map can have its dangers. will be about 60x60.

and perhaps cantar get an overhaul and may change quite a lot, although if i think about it.. the map is so old i cannot do anything about it. i would be better off starting a new one from scratch. but perhaps the back entrance will get fixed.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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iceiceice
Developer
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Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by iceiceice »

Hi Roidanton,

Looks like you have been playing some epic games :D

I have been very busy at work, however, I tried to watch your ToB solo a week and a half ago when you first posted. Unfortunately it seems I have some nasty oos bug, even in the modified replay. On turn 3 the game is confused about some water serpent you kill, it decides that you don't kill it and invalidates all subsequent moves... so I have gotten stuck.

Image

I have not had time to look into this, however I would very much like to watch the replay. Has anyone managed to avoid getting this? If so how? If no one has figured it out I may have time to try to debug it in a week or so.

~iceiceice~

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Hey Ice,

Yeah, look at this post: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 45#p563486, I attached the original and a fixed version of the replay - the Modified_Solo_Victory_Replay.gz is the right one.

Fixing this is really easy as I explained in that post. Watch out for the first OOS about a missing unit called "Leech Worms-97". If you look at the WML, you'll realize there's a unit called "Leech Worms-98" (it's that Hydra Boss that's moving around), but no -97. If you change that, the OOS's should all go away.

Mabuse, sure I'd love to test this. Christmas is coming up and I have a lot of time ...

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

So, the new Version is out.
most important is the increased prices for damage and strikes and reduced enemy HP.

The balance should be mostly the same :)

also, i added some buffs to the different classes as mentioned here in the thread. the leech-bug on ToB has hopefully also been fixed.

also, another special for ranged units was introduced, so th also have a 2nd development path for their weapons. this one features less total damage but better deal/take ratio.


now the questions to the testers:

1)
did the performance improve in late game regarding combat-calculation-speed?

2) do you think its easier or harder? or mostly about the same game-balance?

3) especially about the cleric: do you think that adding health over the maximum at the current rate is overpowered? (its almost 80% of the healing-spell-rate - if cleric buys his staff, he has the "normal" rate for buffing beyond maximum HP))

4) what do you think about the "magical circle" weapon special for ranged units? (it gives 100% chance to hit but cannot be combined with "focus" or "hail-of-arrows")
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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max_torch
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Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by max_torch »

Guys can i just ask what is the difference between sx rpg era and sx rpg era(max)?

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iceiceice
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Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by iceiceice »

max_torch wrote:Guys can i just ask what is the difference between sx rpg era and sx rpg era(max)?
In sx rpg era (max) your unit is already fully leveled up at turn 1, in the normal era it isn't. I think max is considered a little easier, although I guess its debatable.
roidanton wrote:Hey Ice,

Yeah, look at this post: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 45#p563486, I attached the original and a fixed version of the replay - the Modified_Solo_Victory_Replay.gz is the right one.

Fixing this is really easy as I explained in that post. Watch out for the first OOS about a missing unit called "Leech Worms-97". If you look at the WML, you'll realize there's a unit called "Leech Worms-98" (it's that Hydra Boss that's moving around), but no -97. If you change that, the OOS's should all go away.

Mabuse, sure I'd love to test this. Christmas is coming up and I have a lot of time ...
roidanton, thats the one that I downloaded that caused that OOS screenshot :( does it work without issues on your machine, past the point I showed? I don't think the leech worms should make any problem with turn 3 attack on that water serpent anyways.
Mabuse wrote: 1)
did the performance improve in late game regarding combat-calculation-speed?
Mabuse, did you ever try to profile the code? I don't know how easy it is to do in WML or if what you really need is to profile the wesnoth C++, but most likely if you could figure out which lines of code are taking the most time, it would help a lot with optimization.

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Hey, I started to play WW2 last night with a Silver Mage ranger, killed the first three bosses and picked up the cornucopia. Need to run some errands now, but will continue later and post and update.

One thing I already realized is that it's more difficult to initially build the unit due to the higher prices. While bosses have lower hp, things like spiders, fungolds, etc. don't. However, I went almost exclusively both strikes because I wanted to see how that does against bersekers (great on turn 60!), but of course that's even more expensive.

After playing around a bit, I finally decided not to spend all my gold on initial upgrades, but keep some ~400, so I can immediately add hail of arrows after the unit is fully leveled (Silver Mage gets a different weapon, so you can't do that on initial setup). That worked great and allowed me to quickly clear out the undead caves. I followed the same path that I did during my Paladin victory, picked up the armors and am now not strong enough to kill the Witchmaster. However, there are still some unused blue potions nearby and I can also grind some gold by killing creeps.

Ok, gotta go to the mall before it's closing, will edit with an update later ....

Mabuse
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Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by Mabuse »

roidanton wrote: One thing I already realized is that it's more difficult to initially build the unit due to the higher prices. While bosses have lower hp, things like spiders, fungolds, etc. don't.
yes and no.

yes = the increased prices may influence the intial setup.

no = no course the spiders and creeps and fungolds got reduced HP ;)
just compare it ;)


code from wizard of war (OLD):

Code: Select all

{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 2 63 6 0 26 11 0 0}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 2 83 6 0 26 11 0 0}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 1 84 6 0 26 11 0 0}

{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 18 68 6 0 57 21 0 10}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 18 67 6 0 57 21 0 10}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 12 56 6 0 57 21 0 10}
the "26" and the "57" here are percentages which will increease the HP of the "medium funguids"
in this code-snippet.

code from wizard of war (NEW):

Code: Select all

{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 2 63 6 0 18 11 0 0}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 2 83 6 0 18 11 0 0}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 1 84 6 0 18 11 0 0}

{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 18 68 6 0 38 21 0 10}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 18 67 6 0 38 21 0 10}
{SX_PLACE_ATTACKERS se "Medium Fungoids" 12 56 6 0 38 21 0 10}
in the new version these values are "18" and "38" - of course these are early values for early turn enemies, and here the reduction is not so high than for later creeps (since the original stats have more impact).

so if you start with a 12-4 weapon and buy (in old version) for 200 gold 5 damage - your weapons has 17 - 4 total which is a max of 68

and in the new version you would get +4 damage for 200 gold - for a total of 16 -4 - which is a max of 64.

so you see for low spend gold sums, the difference is not so high ;)
so early game creeps have less reduced hp. later game creeps ahve more reduced hp, since the impact of increased prices will grow over time.

turn 100 creeps get +765% in old version, and +512% in the new version
thats about 1/3 less (additional) HP.

for example.

of course i needed to adjust ALL enemies, not just the bosses.
else the game would be unplaybale, and i would not state things like "the balance is overall the same"

anyways,
just want to explicitly clarify that --->> ALL ENEMIES got reduced HP
the overall balance should be the same.


i dont raise the difficulty by simply increase prices of damage/strikes ad leave the creps as they are.
that would be stupid.


but your first impression is that it is more difficult?
of course i will run tests for myself - i had the impression on the first few turns that it is perhaps a bit easier. i had no problem with early creeps with my 5 player team. and in 5 player game each hero has just 850 starting gold (on expert).

but of course .. i didnt finish the game yet, nor played very long.
im looking forwardf testing for myself more, but if you say its "more difficult" it ok, since you will soon adapt to the new situation ;)

my only fear was that it si a lot easier.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SX RPG Expert Strategies?

Post by roidanton »

Hmm, maybe it was just my imagination because I was trying this with a ranger and still had my bersek-it-all run in memory. Got distracted playing WC, so couldn't continue that game yet and now I'm a bit too drunk.

There has been a question in the online game chat about where to get the rusty key in ToB, but I was busy joining a new WC game, so I'll answer that here:

There are three keys in the undead caves: one in the shop at 89,40 and one in each of the small chambers next to the entrance to the leader's keep, at 77,35 and 86,35. Don't know which one is which, but you should go to each of those locations.

I've spent a couple of hours online on the MP server tonight and there were quite a few SXRPG games running, don't know whether these were already using the new version, though.

/Edit: Good thing about SX RPG is that you can play it alone, without allies who first ask about highest possible difficulty, then - after luckily winning first map with a third of their army dead - are completely surprised that there's another map, lol. Got myself another beer, put on some good music, then loaded that game from Friday.

And now, I remember why it felt that much more complicated: I went the both-strikes route, trying to build a "bersek-proof" ranger. Of course, that's a lot more expensive than my previous attempts with ranged units!

/Edit #2: Ok, this unit is truly berseker-proof! And I can't kill Pitdemon or Reaper Ghosts in one turn, but I survive their counter-attacks - that's going to be interesting ....

/Edit #3: Turn 87 - It is absolutely amazing how quickly the game can change - maxed out on both strikes and this unit is now an almost unstoppable killing machine!

/Edit #4: Turn 100 - "you have failed. farewell fools." - another boss has fallen! There are now several sub-bosses that I cannot easily kill, but luckily Fire Titan is the only one who's counter-attack I need to be afraid of.

/Edit #5: Turn 101: There is one ultimate test of power: when you face an Abyss Devil for the first time! 99.5% chance to kill, with >= 22 hp remaining! Day-time as chaotic unit, effective 42-17 (90-17 raw weapon stats) ice wave hail of arrows, precision, slows - it defends with 30-8 abysmal fire (arcane) which I have 75% resistance against.

/Edit #6: Turn 130: Grinding gold in the fire chamber. Found a bug: boss spawns inside the wall at 57,4

/Edit #7: Turn 140: Grinded a full 2572 of gold before running out of healing potions, running back to shop to upgrade ....

Turn 143: "... with my last breath, I open the gates to hell!!" - I could probably have stayed here for at least another 10-20 turns to grind some more gold, but it's getting late so I wanna see how it's outside the temple ...

Ok, I made it until turn 158 before I had to reload from 142. Do not kill the last boss in the temple if your stats are around 120-18. That seems to be way too weak to survive outside, especially those spiders are extremely nasty!

Ok, I'm calling it a session here, too tired to continue - I attached the last save, it's on a shop with about 2500 gold, so if anyone wants to play around with different upgrades ....

If you put everything into ranged damage, then you'll get about 62% chance to kill that Abyss Devil - it has death aura and regenerates, so you can either save-load mid-turn until you get the desired result or burn a ton of healing potions because it will damage you pretty badly. And you'll need to kill the other units around it first or you'll die. If you enable no luck mode, then it is a kill with about 140 hp remaining, but those bersekers will do a ton more damage to you when no luck mode is enabled (you'll barely survive at full health, but only lose about 1/3rd of your health without it).

The unit is currently at 94-18 ranged-fire, 96-17 ranged-ice both fully upgraded with hail of arrows, precision and slows - you can get that to 120-18 by spending all that gold.

Outside the temple, the normal Abyss Devils and Abyss Lords can be killed, Fire Titan would need a blue potion and heavily damages you if you stand next to it - spiders need at least three attacks each (when using blue potions, you also need red to un-slow yourself) and kill you if you stand next to it at full health.

As I said before, the bersekers are now also so strong that they'd heavily damage you - which makes me wonder whether it hasn't been a mistake to buy both strikes. Earlier in the game, I could have simply killed them all before they get near me and if I put all that gold into just ranged strikes and damage, than the unit would be strong enough now to win this.

However, it's not all lost yet with that unit - there's a decent chance to grind enough gold inside that fire chamber. The vast majority of the Acamantus boss recruits are easy kills. The unit also still has 5 armor slots left to upgrade - at currently 35% blade/pierce/impact and 85% fire/cold/arcane - raw stats, the unit has dauntless and steadfast.

Regarding performance, I think it has improved significantly - the AI turns now actually take longer than before, but the attack dialog now pops up a lot faster than before, so overall game speed is a lot faster than before. However, I have done some cleanups and removed some Add-Ons that I didn't really use, so maybe that's also playing some factor here.
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