Too many unbalanced campaigns

Share and discuss strategies for playing the game, and get help and tips from other players.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Insinuator
Posts: 706
Joined: January 6th, 2004, 10:42 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by Insinuator » August 27th, 2012, 11:26 pm

WesnothNewbie wrote:Even if they AI isn't very clever, if they have larger numbers, larger amounts of levelled unit, AND you don't have many units that can effectively counteract them, you start to get trouble.
Now, I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but I think this needs to be said. Other people have done it. It is highly likely that hundreds of other people have completed it. I've probably done it, for goodness sake.

Secondly, campaign designers like giving you trouble. If people designed every campaign around assauging the player's ego, then it would leave Wesnoth wanting for those of us who enjoy a challenge and don't mind losing half a dozen times. Making a campaign easier by evening the numbers also dulls the excitement and tension that comes with a hard fight.

Thirdly, I would like to echo doofus-01's comments: Single-player does not NEED a super AI. A well designed campaign utilizes surprise, unique player handicaps, the element of the unknown, player placement, and creative map design to create a challenging and enjoyable scenario. These qualities do more than compensate for an imperfect AI, they go beyond what even the most brilliant computer player can do and alter the actual environment. MP should not be compared because it can't. Well, mostly can't.

jazzykat
Posts: 10
Joined: August 27th, 2012, 9:30 am

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by jazzykat » August 29th, 2012, 9:14 am

I am a huge newb here since I started playing less than 2 weeks ago and am still learning the basic mechanics. I completed The tutorial, The Southern Watch and am playing HttT. The following are my opinions.

Once I get ZoC down a little better I think the AI is going to get mowed down.

Before you say the AI is unbalanced make sure you are a master of ZoC. I have a feeling that ZoC is 80% of the game. Only let 1 or 2 units a turn attack you during the night and then encircle and slaughter, by that time morning is coming and you can hit the next of their lines at dawn, and then during the day it's all out slaughter.

Also, all those L2 units w/o range attacks are great for you to level fast on. Encircle with a bunch of dudes and let them all shoot with range weapons. They kill one or two of yours and you kill 2/3 of theirs and usually you come out with 1 or 2 L2 at some point.

Just make sure you have enough gold, numbers seem to usually be more important than level.

Also, I am beginning to think you should never lose a good loyal unit (your mage, and horseman) unless you win the final scenario.

User avatar
The_Afterman
Posts: 50
Joined: August 7th, 2012, 6:32 pm

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by The_Afterman » August 29th, 2012, 11:10 am

I don't think it's that big of a part of the game. :p
A lot of scenarios, especially on tougher campaigns, have you outnumbered, and they move as a force sometimes to the point where you can't get guys on both sides of them.

WesnothNewbie
Posts: 49
Joined: May 7th, 2012, 6:57 pm

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by WesnothNewbie » August 29th, 2012, 8:44 pm

Insinuator wrote:
WesnothNewbie wrote:Even if they AI isn't very clever, if they have larger numbers, larger amounts of levelled unit, AND you don't have many units that can effectively counteract them, you start to get trouble.
Now, I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but I think this needs to be said. Other people have done it. It is highly likely that hundreds of other people have completed it. I've probably done it, for goodness sake.

Secondly, campaign designers like giving you trouble. If people designed every campaign around assauging the player's ego, then it would leave Wesnoth wanting for those of us who enjoy a challenge and don't mind losing half a dozen times. Making a campaign easier by evening the numbers also dulls the excitement and tension that comes with a hard fight.

Thirdly, I would like to echo doofus-01's comments: Single-player does not NEED a super AI. A well designed campaign utilizes surprise, unique player handicaps, the element of the unknown, player placement, and creative map design to create a challenging and enjoyable scenario. These qualities do more than compensate for an imperfect AI, they go beyond what even the most brilliant computer player can do and alter the actual environment. MP should not be compared because it can't. Well, mostly can't.
It's not like I can't complete any campaigns, because I can. As I mentioned previously, my original problem, which I stressed, was that in certain scenarios, you have an enemy that has units you simply have no effective counterattack. I specifically mentioned AOI in making you fight the skeletons- which have 60% resistance to pierce- the main weapon of rebels- and a secondary 40% resistance to blade, as well as hard to hit draining ghosts, makes it absurdly difficult to fight with only pierce and blade troops (besides the shaman's rather weak attack) and about 4 mages max, usually less.

What I stressed wasn't necessarily that campaigns should have you starting with equal gold and levelled units and trying to make a super AI, but rather that campaign developers should really think about how the player is going to be able to beat the scenario, if they are less experienced or have fewer levelled units because they selected the supposedly "easier" difficulty setting.
In Linux Land, if you listen hard at night, you can hear the whirr of Windows machines rebooting.

User avatar
TheScribe
Posts: 465
Joined: June 17th, 2012, 8:17 pm
Location: You won't know till it's too late

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by TheScribe » August 29th, 2012, 9:00 pm

or have fewer levelled units because they selected the supposedly "easier" difficulty setting
I'm not quite sure how you think you'll have fewer levelled units on easy. On easy, you're less likely to lose leveled units, and have easier enemies to destroy and gain XP from. Sure, it's less XP, but that shouldn't make much of a difference, considering you'll need less leveled units to succeed.

And in regard to AOI, you can easily kill skeletons with only pierce weapons. Sure, it's easier with a different weapon type, but they aren't that hard to defeat. Swarm tactics should solve most of your troubles, combined with the Shaman's slows ability.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by tuggyne » August 30th, 2012, 9:19 am

WesnothNewbie wrote:It's not like I can't complete any campaigns, because I can. As I mentioned previously, my original problem, which I stressed, was that in certain scenarios, you have an enemy that has units you simply have no effective counterattack. I specifically mentioned AOI in making you fight the skeletons- which have 60% resistance to pierce- the main weapon of rebels- and a secondary 40% resistance to blade, as well as hard to hit draining ghosts, makes it absurdly difficult to fight with only pierce and blade troops (besides the shaman's rather weak attack) and about 4 mages max, usually less.
The fact that you chose AOI as your example is probably not helping your case any. Sure, fighting skeletons with primarily martial elves can be annoying, but it's by no means impossible, nor is it at all difficult to grab a few Sorceresses to blast away with arcane damage. It's much harder to, for example, defeat skeletons with nothing but peasants, or to defeat wraiths with nothing but drakes (although even there burners make it simpler), or to trash spearmen with cavalry and horsemen, or take down woses with bowmen and spearmen, or ....

User avatar
taptap
Posts: 980
Joined: October 6th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by taptap » August 30th, 2012, 11:17 am

It is probably true that sometimes the reduced XP in easy setting might give you trouble later, especially when you aren't that good in xp management yet.

But still: If you have shamans it can't be unbalanced! You need to learn about the amazing power of the slow ability and the even more amazing unit tree of shamans (and about retreating at night if the problem is the AOI scenario I have in mind). If you have shamans you have no reason whatsoever to complain that the campaign doesn't offer you units to counter undead. Get shamans and level some of them. For comparison Legend of Wesmere lets you fight L3 trolls in the second scenario with only allowed recruits being fighters and archers (yes!) - there you have an unbalanced recruit. (But it was introduced with regard to overall campaign balance.)
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

User avatar
nuorc
Forum Regular
Posts: 569
Joined: September 3rd, 2009, 2:25 pm
Location: Barag Gor

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by nuorc » August 30th, 2012, 11:46 am

Elves are absolute ud-killers!

Control enemy units with slow and punching bags (put fighters in the front, they don't need to attack + they get healed by the healers they protect), make kills with mages/levelled shammies. Note: Red line mages are 'neutral', so they burn the enemy night=day. Not to talk about what woses can do to bones, especially at day..
I have a cunning plan.

TheCripple
Posts: 103
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 3:30 am

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by TheCripple » August 31st, 2012, 5:01 am

WesnothNewbie wrote:
beetlenaut wrote:Read this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WhyWritingAWesnothAIIsHard. It's not that the developers don't know how the AI should behave, it's just that telling it how is very, very hard.
Hmm... Well that was an interesting link, thank you for posting. I can certainly understand the difficulty of programming an AI, but I still think the campaigns are somewhat unfair to the player. Even if they AI isn't very clever, if they have larger numbers, larger amounts of levelled unit, AND you don't have many units that can effectively counteract them, you start to get trouble.
Campaign terrain is frequently biased towards you (large blocks of homogenous terrain essentially always work in your favor, due to AI stupidity), and it's not like you can't get a diverse force. In the case of the elves, you can get every type of damage other than fire and cold through the Archer, Swordsman, and Shaman alone, with arcane opening up with the Sorcerer line. For a campaign that's plenty.

Insinuator
Posts: 706
Joined: January 6th, 2004, 10:42 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by Insinuator » August 31st, 2012, 1:53 pm

WesnothNewbie wrote:What I stressed wasn't necessarily that campaigns should have you starting with equal gold and levelled units and trying to make a super AI, but rather that campaign developers should really think about how the player is going to be able to beat the scenario, if they are less experienced or have fewer levelled units because they selected the supposedly "easier" difficulty setting.
Developers should think about this. Now while I can't speak for all UMC, they certainly have thought about it for the mainline campaigns and they are easier on easier levels. If you really don't believe that, try the same campaign on a harder difficulty level and see how that works for you. Until you can prove a disparity, try to focus on improving your own skills before thinking about a developer's flaws. Start with easier scenarios, too. That will help you build confidence and eventually be able to overcome even without the "right" units.

WesnothNewbie
Posts: 49
Joined: May 7th, 2012, 6:57 pm

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by WesnothNewbie » September 3rd, 2012, 11:26 am

Insinuator wrote:
WesnothNewbie wrote:What I stressed wasn't necessarily that campaigns should have you starting with equal gold and levelled units and trying to make a super AI, but rather that campaign developers should really think about how the player is going to be able to beat the scenario, if they are less experienced or have fewer levelled units because they selected the supposedly "easier" difficulty setting.
Developers should think about this. Now while I can't speak for all UMC, they certainly have thought about it for the mainline campaigns and they are easier on easier levels. If you really don't believe that, try the same campaign on a harder difficulty level and see how that works for you. Until you can prove a disparity, try to focus on improving your own skills before thinking about a developer's flaws. Start with easier scenarios, too. That will help you build confidence and eventually be able to overcome even without the "right" units.
I think if there are a number of players who would agree with me that certain mainline campaigns have some very difficult scenarios in them (think Valley of the Undead, Valley of Trolls etc.) that are more difficult on "easier" difficulty settings because of the fact you have to fight certain enemy units with units of your own that don't do well, i.e you may need more sorceresses or Paladins for example. See this thread for details: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=20319
In Linux Land, if you listen hard at night, you can hear the whirr of Windows machines rebooting.

User avatar
TheScribe
Posts: 465
Joined: June 17th, 2012, 8:17 pm
Location: You won't know till it's too late

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by TheScribe » September 3rd, 2012, 12:10 pm

Personally, I never had this problem. After playing HttT I realized the importance of leveling more units and not losing them, as well as keeping loyal units, and giving them priority. In the early scenarios of a campaign, give units with intelligent XP, and try not to lose them.

Also, if you think that the easy difficulty is too hard and the harder difficulties will be easier, I invite you to try the harder difficulty levels and find out for yourself, instead of complaining. (if you have tried other difficulty levels and you still think the easy difficulty is harder, contact the maintainer and offer some suggestions. If he/she doesn't take them, it's not the end of the world. There are other campaigns out there. :wink: )
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.

WanderingHero
Posts: 168
Joined: May 30th, 2011, 2:03 pm
Location: Uk, London

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by WanderingHero » September 7th, 2012, 3:45 pm

I don't think HTT is that good of a campaign and I find most campaigns reasonbly fair, with the odd obnoxious scenario

User avatar
TheScribe
Posts: 465
Joined: June 17th, 2012, 8:17 pm
Location: You won't know till it's too late

Re: Too many unbalanced campaigns

Post by TheScribe » September 7th, 2012, 4:00 pm

Well, my refrence to HttT was just because it was my first campaign that I played, not because it was why I learned about leveling.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.

Post Reply