Northerners still giving me grief.

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silent
Posts: 244
Joined: February 20th, 2009, 5:53 am

Northerners still giving me grief.

Post by silent » November 29th, 2010, 5:52 am

As the title says, though it's more playing them in multiplayer I have the problem with.

I'm pretty sure I know the main 2 reasons that cost me in this game, though I wouldn't mind the input anyways. Mainly the failed first night and the reckless charge after fighting back...

The replay is me vs Cackfiend's picked rebels.

And yes I'm well aware how bad I fail at being unable to perform a rush as P1 on the freelands :oops:

Edit: 1.8.2 was the version played on.
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Aelaris
Posts: 77
Joined: January 21st, 2010, 3:22 am

Re: Northerners still giving me grief.

Post by Aelaris » November 29th, 2010, 8:05 am

Why didn't you attack during that night? You had a force of a bunch of grunts, and you move them into a... defensive position? Rather than simply killing the exposed elf on a village with four grunts or so? And then you retreat from the position, all onto the right side, rather than onto the more defensible center? I know you know that the first night failed, but... I don't see why it failed in the way you did.

Throughout, there are simply a lot of times you could have hit things, when instead you did not hit things. And then you got hit by arrows, which you can't hit back against.

You're Northerners! You've got Grunts! Don't be afraid to shed a little blood.

Also note the math on grunts:
Grunt get hit twice by a Elvish fighter: 10 damage.
(Ten damage= 10 Hp)x(12gp/38hp)= 3.15gp worth of damage. Heck, 6.3 GP of damage if the Elf hit every time.
During the night, let's say the grunt does 11, hits once.
11x(14/33) = 4.66 GP. Or Hitting twice, 9.333 GP of damage.
What does this mean? On equal terrain, you make money when you fight someone during the night.

The kicker?
9x(14/33) = 3.81 GP. That's right, it's still advantageous to hit Elfish fighters on equal terrain during the twilight. That 5-4 to attack is basically less than your 9-2.
And during the day?
7x(14/33) = 2.96 GP. So during the day, you lose a little bit when you get into a sword-fight with the most melee cost-effective normal elf unit.

That's for the fighter, the main melee guy of the elves. Everyone else, you win a little bit of money when you smack them, even during the day. (Just don't expose them to a bazillion arrows on bad terrain, yeah?)

Basically:
An HP of Orcish grunt = .31 of a single GP
An HP of Elvish fighter = .42 of a single GP = 1.34 Grunt HPs
An HP of Elvish Scout = 1.78 Grunt HPs (And won't do as much damage as you, even during the day)
An HP of Elvish Archer = 1.85 grunt HPs (And their melee was debuffed specifically so Orcs could hit them better)
...and each HP of a Mage? Worth 2.6 HPs worth of grunt-meat.

So go out there and hit things!
Spoiler:
"Let's all agree that Konrad simply represents 'Konrad and his female ninja bodyguards'." - Gambit, explaining how a character could also be a battalion.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Northerners still giving me grief.

Post by Velensk » November 29th, 2010, 12:59 pm

I haven't looked at the replay yet and I'll give you a real dissection after I finish work but I will say that Crackfiend is a very good player and losing to him is not worthy of shame.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3988
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Northerners still giving me grief.

Post by Velensk » November 29th, 2010, 2:52 pm

I'm going to disagree with Aelaris in general. I don't think that the problem was that you were too shy as a good elf player in the situations you were in can make it a really dumb idea to try to come after them at night. I think much of the problem came from other areas.

Turn 1: You probably could have gotten away with one less wolfrider if you wanted to (not that having two wolfriders is a bad thing)

Turn 2: Your village grabbing could have been slightly more efficient on the left side. You could have grabbed both the villages you did with grunts and the one in front with the wolf.
If you wanted to do a first night rush it is generally easier to attack on the right side (as p1). Two units can grab all the villages on the left side/defend while 4-5 units strike on the right. You have not geared your movement toward such a push however you mentioned earlier that you did an early rush. I will point out that attacking in other locations gives your opponent more terrain to work with and involves being closer to their keep making it easier for them to bring their leader into the fray and reinforce.

Turn 3: As Crackfiend noted you missed a village, I think you did this intentionally to facilitate the rush. I won’t say that the rush pattern you’ve chosen cannot work but it is a risky one especially against a good player.

Turn 4: Despite what the person above me commented it was not a poor decision to not attack that archer (the elves could have retaliated very effectively at that point) however you should have positioned more aggressively so that you could better attack next turn. It would be stupid of him to attempt to counter attack you and thus you don’t need to worry about defense. What becomes important is ensuring that no matter how he moves you can attack one village with enough force to kill the occupant. (4 grunts is statistically a kill on almost any elf and enough units to flank a village so that he can’t reoccupy it without killing one of the grunts first).

Turn 5: Recruiting goblins is generally the move of someone who is planning to avoid fighting for awhile (or someone with problems with cavalry). You now have taken a position where you can attack but it’s a bit on the late side. If you attack on turn 6, then they can counter attack and it will be dawn before you can attack again, they can entangle you and keep the fight running till day with a steady flow of reinforcements. At this point the best you can do is try to keep them sitting back so that they have a harder time attacking you during the coming day.

Turn 6: Couldn’t retreat fast enough there. It might have been better to retreat the units who could not get away fast enough down the center that way even if he can just run up and shoot you he’ll be moving toward the relatively easy to defend village in the center rather than the vulnerable village on the left. Also this way if he goes to the left and ignores you you have a slight potential to threaten to flank.


Turn 7: No comment

Turn 8: A bit of bad luck and an already bad situation turned the game very ugly for you there.

Turn 9: Several of your moves there just seemed just poorly thought out in general though I think you had the right overall approach. If you cannot successfully counter attack here the game is as good as done though.

Turn 10: There was no real reason to move the grunt on the right from that village that I can see. Just make it easy for him to steal another village which you are not in a good position to easily retake.

Turn 11: No comment

Turn 12: No Comment

Turn 13: Keeping the pressure on is a good thing but you were actually ahead for the moment. You had iced more of them than they had yours and yours are cheaper. Sure they’d stolen your villages and probably had a little more working for them in total gold value but you’ve got better position. Attacking at this point is more likely to give them a chance to turn things around than to keep them on defense. It probably would have been better to sit back and wait for night to push again as they would almost certainly be unable to attack (at least until the reinforcements they get arrive which won’t be for another couple turns and even then you don’t have to worry overly much because they’ll have to commit some of their forces to chasing that wolf away).

Turn 14: I’m not quite sure that I understand the reasoning for your moves on the left. You retreated the forces you could have supported your grunts down south with for very little reason I could see (it’s not like they’d be prime targets for the elves what with a grunt in the open and a grunt sitting on one of their villages). Now they might have not been able to do much but they would almost certainly be more use there than a ways away and this way you would not have to spend a turn bringing them back.

Turn 15: I congratulate you on finding a good time to recruit to recruit two wolves. On the downside, I think that you will get run over on the left side come next day if you do not exert more presence there this night.

Turn 16: No comment

Turn 17: I thought that some of your tactical priorities on the right were a bit skewed but that tends to be a matter of style rather than any sort of hard rule. I don’t think that wolves were what was wanted.

Turn 18: The game is essentially over.

Overall: I felt that there were a few times when making a different strategic decision would have been advantageous but it's really hard to say how advantageous without actually playing it out.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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