Drakes or Undead 1vs1?

[monochromatic]

Assuming a balanced mainline map, 100 gold, 2 income, 2gpv (basically use map settings), would you choose Drakes or Undead?

For me, undead desicively. Paritally because I think DAs are incredible, and I prefer not to use expensive units. Two Vampire Bats can make a frightening effective village-stealing. What about you? Please state anwser and reason.

[Caphriel]

Drakes, every time. They have all the initiative in this matchup (which is, in fact, the most boring matchup in Wesnoth in my opinion; even worse than a mirror.)

[Velensk]

Drakes

[Leid]

Undead, the adepts are fantastic. All undead units are cheap than drakes.

I don't know why 8-2 cold ranged costs 16 (and more hp!) and 7-3 fire ranged costs 20 (with poor hp and one melee hit)

[monochromatic]

Umm...more powerful level up possibilities? And it's 10-2 and 7-2 for DAs, where did you get 8-2 from?

[psychic]

Undead, the adepts are fantastic. All undead units are cheap than drakes.

I don't know why 8-2 cold ranged costs 16 (and more hp!) and 7-3 fire ranged costs 20 (with poor hp and one melee hit)

@Elvish absolutely right where is the 8-2 coming from

In wesnoth similar to most other strategic games you cannot compare 2 units for balance you can only compare 2 factions.

[norbert]

In wesnoth similar to most other strategic games you cannot compare 2 units for balance you can only compare 2 factions.

I disagree with that statement. In my opinion both can be compared, and it may even be (a lot) easier to compare two units for balance. I think I could code a program that would parse two (or more) units and tell you exactly how much better or worse one unit is than the other. In fact, as soon as I've finished working on wesirc (it only needs two extra features) and fixed the last couple of WSRSW bugs, I will start working on that program. Sure, it'll be a challenge, but I like that.

[psychic]

I disagree with that statement. In my opinion both can be compared, and it may even be (a lot) easier to compare two units for balance. I think I could code a program that would parse two (or more) units and tell you exactly how much better or worse one unit is than the other. In fact, as soon as I've finished working on wesirc (it only needs two extra features) and fixed the last couple of WSRSW bugs, I will start working on that program. Sure, it'll be a challenge, but I like that.

I saw your idea wrt to auto unit balancing. It cannot be done(forgive the negative tone) unless all the strategies can somehow be captured into the balancing algorithm. It might work for balancing say all the standard melee units of the different factions. Apart from that there are just too many permutations, combinations and unknowns to arrive at a good solution.

[Yoyobuae]

Drakes:
Fire-breathing dragon-like creatures and human-sized lizard men >>> reanimated skeletons/corpses, cursed ghouls, enslaved ghosts, melee-inept DAs

Bats are ok though, I have a soft spot for winged creatures.

Oh, you mean strategy-wise? I always use drakes, so that boat has sailed. I find it easier to fight undead than other factions. Occasionally they can be troublesome with bats and ghost/DA combos, but my drakes usually have an easier time holding back undead than, say, loyalists.

Luckily, the new gliders are now far more useful in this match-up. Now it's far easier to hold back those bats, even over water.

Off topic:

I disagree with that statement. In my opinion both can be compared, and it may even be (a lot) easier to compare two units for balance. I think I could code a program that would parse two (or more) units and tell you exactly how much better or worse one unit is than the other. In fact, as soon as I've finished working on wesirc (it only needs two extra features) and fixed the last couple of WSRSW bugs, I will start working on that program. Sure, it'll be a challenge, but I like that.

I saw your idea wrt to auto unit balancing. It cannot be done(forgive the negative tone) unless all the strategies can somehow be captured into the balancing algorithm. It might work for balancing say all the standard melee units of the different factions. Apart from that there are just too many permutations, combinations and unknowns to arrive at a good solution.

It's a given that the analysis from a program will never come to the level of the analysis an experienced player can provide.

Now, if the objective is to just to provide the best analysis a program can give (say for use in the wesnoth AI's recruiting algorithm) then an idea might be to use statistic analysis. The concept is to take a dataset representative of normal wesnoth gameplay (ie: like the set of wesnoth replays that Quetzalcoatl used in his win/lose stats) and extract the probability of different use cases for different units.

For example, what's the average damage output of a unit type? how many combat turns can a unit survive on average? how frequently will units fight on certain terrain types? how frequently will units get attacked melee/ranged? (for each specific maps/matchups). These stats can help paint a slightly more complete picture than, say, directly analyze the stats of each recruitable unit, the map's configuration and the match-up. I suppose this would be very helpful to improve wesnoth's AI in default maps at least.

Another possible application would be map balancing. This would probably require to simulate the statistics of normal wesnoth gameplay for a specific map (ie. simulate a wesnoth game a lot of times, adding some randomness, probably applying some filtering in the end). The huge number of combinations/permutations is a problem again, but then one needs only a good enough sample (for each match-up). Again, this is only supposed to give a general idea of balance, in this case to aid the map designer. In the end, fine tuning will probably require play testing anyway.

[Hulavuta]

Drakes. I don't practice as much with Undead though, so...

Plus, people say Undead is too strong against Drakes, but Fire easily takes care of almost all of their units. And the Adept (a main counter) is toast against a clasher or a skirmisher at night. Marksman can take care of Bats.

[Caphriel]

I tend to think Drakes have an advantage against the Undead, and a fairly significant one, on some maps, and at worst still have even odds. The bigger the map is and the more the Drakes can work their maneuverability advantages, the better they'll do. The only map I'd prefer the Undead on is Den of Onis. Maps like Weldyn, on the other hand, feel extremely difficult for the Undead.

[donkey_noob_trash1]

Undead, the adepts are fantastic. All undead units are cheap than drakes.

I don't know why 8-2 cold ranged costs 16 (and more hp!) and 7-3 fire ranged costs 20 (with poor hp and one melee hit)

Umm...more powerful level up possibilities? And it's 10-2 and 7-2 for DAs, where did you get 8-2 from?

You wonder where he got the 8-2 from, but not the 7-3 fire ranged that costs 20? Pretty sure he has a different version of Wesnoth than the rest of us ;P

As regards the OP, I have to say that I choose drakes over UD, on pretty much most maps. I think longer games are going to tend to favor undead, despite the mobility impairment. I could be wrong, though...
Just kidding, I'm never wrong

[Eskon]

He was comparing the dark adept to the mage, making the argument that it's pretty silly adepts are so much cheaper considering they are just as powerful. Except, of course, you don't balance units against each other, but factions.

[Rhaegar]

It's kinda difficult to tell, but IMHO Undeads are just a bit disadvantaged. Most of disadvantage comes from the fact they rule in night, but drakes has lizards, who can easily match up against undeads units during night and let daily units finish their work. I consider drakes as a neutral faction, after all.

[Yoyobuae]

It's kinda difficult to tell, but IMHO Undeads are just a bit disadvantaged. Most of disadvantage comes from the fact they rule in night, but drakes has lizards, who can easily match up against undeads units during night and let daily units finish their work. I consider drakes as a neutral faction, after all.

LOL, whut???

First off, DAs have a 50% CTK a full health saurian on it's own. Second, skeletons resist both their main damage types (pierce/cold) and simply murder them back (blade).

Drakes as a faction should avoid combat during night VS undead at all costs (even if it means yielding villages). At daytime undeads can nearly match drakes in term of damage, at night it's just plain suicide for drakes.

Drakes are not a neutral faction. One of the important things to learn about drakes is how to make the most out of ToD advantage. Drakes can really take benefit of either day or night. It depends a lot on the faction match-up though. So VS undead drakes play pretty much like a lawful faction, but VS loyalists they play like a chaotic one.

Although that doesn't mean that a saurian skirmisher is can take advantage of night to hurt DAs. Nor that Clashers can't pierce any loyalist mounted unit that is unprotected. That's one of the main advantages of drakes actually, they can benefit from either ToD when played right.