The Point of Goblins?

[Icarusvogel]

Goblins arn't THAT weak. For their cost, they make a lot of damage. Ever fought with goblins against cavalry at night? Not? Well, you can imagine...

[Thrawn]

Except that it means that the player let you trap their cavalry (which is much more mobile than anything orcs have except wolfrider and maybe assassin) at an unfavorable ToD.

[Huumy]

Except that it means that the player let you trap their cavalry (which is much more mobile than anything orcs have except wolfrider and maybe assassin) at an unfavorable ToD.

Or maybe the loyalist just want to defend his villages at night with cavalry?

[Aelaris]

The lack of speed is the thing that gets me, strangely. Lack of health, fine. But I really want to use this unit to attack things, but when I'm attacking (night), everything manages to outrun the Gobbos.

It's not like I can hide them, either, as four movement means they are seen a long time before they can attack.

A glass cannon that can't get to its targets can't deal damage. And that's just not good.

Of course, every now and then I do wind up recruiting one for a particular use. Sitting out somewhere and watching for anyone sneaking around the long way, or something. Fetching the newspaper, basically.

[Sorrow]

They have a 33% chance of being slow. If they are not slow they have above average speed because of their movetype.

[csparrow]

Pointless? Useless? You're kidding right? They are great if you don't wanna break the bank they don't start needing upkeep until they level up. With a 6-3 attack they can do some serious damage and at 9 coins not only do you get a unit with a 6-3 melee you also get a 3-1 range attack too. When they level up, man, they become scary. they are stronger then Orc grunts at that point 8-3 melee(first Strike too) 5-1 range.. or 7-3 melee and leadership(not very useful unless you have hordes of goblins).

however, goblin spear men do have weak points , and dumb points, and slow point, and at 18 hp it takes one lucky spearman,fighter,archer,thunderer,etc... to kill them so keep the goblins with more experience in the center of the horde until leveled.

[silent]

Just in response to your post csparrow, but dim goblins are easily the best as dim is almost not a penalty at all for goblins.

Asides from the fact many die unfortunately due to their HP, almost the only reason they will ever level is if they are the lucky beneficiaries of 2 kills. with 13xp non-dim, and 15xp dim, they are easily the best due to not missing a mp, or damage point. (assuming standard mp xp of 70%).

[Icarusvogel]

As it says in the descrition, they're meant as cannon fodder.
But as someone said, Thunderers are a real pain... 18-1 against 18 HP just isn't nice... still, I think they are not a bad unit. Better than peasants, anyway.

[Faello]

Goblins are integral for northeners strategy:

Most ppl does not know how to use them - it's obvious it's the cheapest unit in northeners roster, goblins lack ZoC, they have 3 moderate pierce attacks, they're relatively slow too.

Essentially, at least 1 goblin should be ALWAYS recruited in turn 1 of any 2vs2 game - I think that this rule may be used in 1vs1 games too.

Goblin in the assault force gives northeners player few important things:
- better melee damage variation (3 attacks instead of 2) so a higher level of control over RNG then in the case of trolls or grunts (it's very important). It's more probable to hit twice with goblin than to hit twice with grunt or troll. Notice that every other +2 attacks unit northeners have is quite expensive too (archer - 14gp but bow is weaker than goblin spear, assasin - 17gp, but daggers are pretty weak, only wolf raider gives similar attack configuration, but it costs almost twice as much - 17 gp - and probably should be used elsewhere, not to mention different attack type)
- strongest & cheapest pierce damage in northeners faction (another unit that has pierce damage is archer, but archer costs 14gp and his attack power is too low for the price-strenght relation this unit has - it costs 14gp mostly because of the fire arrows, not damage output per se)
- it can be used as a meat shield to cover other, more expensive units (better to lose 9gp than more)
- strong drake counter unit (mix of grunts + goblins is deadly for drakes)
- it levels up quickly and if it does, northeners get a very useful spearman unit, only slightly weaker than loyalists counterpart (I usually go for the impaler, but rouser might be a better choice sometimes, because it has more hit points - discussing leadership seems to be useless because goblins are auxiliary attackers, thus building attack force based on them & rouser's leadership is a bad idea generally)
- it is 0 lvl unit - it's very important because most of the players forget that costs of lvl1 and higher level units is a cost of recruitment + costs of the upkeep = it's good to recruit goblins early, because usually during first attack phase enemy isn't usually strong enough to overwhelm your defences if you move well, and during your next powerphase you will have significant numerical superiority over him + you will save some money this way)

Only real disadvantage goblin has, is a lack of ZoC - aside from that, it's a perfect unit even for the price of 9 gp, newcomers and regular players seems to ignore vast advantages goblins give Northeners (because they don't know how to keep their units alive and +15hp goblin seems to be too frail for them), but lack of ZoC can be nullified by a good lvl1 and goblin units placement - sometimes you can build a deadly ZoC thanks to this little fellows!

If you ignore advantages goblins give northeners, you don't know how to play them properly.

[nebula955]

Goblins are integral for northeners strategy:

Most ppl does not know how to use them - it's obvious it's the cheapest unit in northeners roster, goblins lack ZoC, they have 3 moderate pierce attacks, they're relatively slow too.

Essentially, at least 1 goblin should be ALWAYS recruited in turn 1 of any 2vs2 game - I think that this rule may be used in 1vs1 games too.

Goblin in the assault force gives northeners player few important things:
- better melee damage variation (3 attacks instead of 2) so a higher level of control over RNG then in the case of trolls or grunts (it's very important). It's more probable to hit twice with goblin than to hit twice with grunt or troll. Notice that every other +2 attacks unit northeners have is quite expensive too (archer - 14gp but bow is weaker than goblin spear, assasin - 17gp, but daggers are pretty weak, only wolf raider gives similar attack configuration, but it costs almost twice as much - 17 gp - and probably should be used elsewhere, not to mention different attack type)
- strongest & cheapest pierce damage in northeners faction (another unit that has pierce damage is archer, but archer costs 14gp and his attack power is too low for the price-strenght relation this unit has - it costs 14gp mostly because of the fire arrows, not damage output per se)
- it can be used as a meat shield to cover other, more expensive units (better to lose 9gp than more)
- strong drake counter unit (mix of grunts + goblins is deadly for drakes)
- it levels up quickly and if it does, northeners get a very useful spearman unit, only slightly weaker than loyalists counterpart (I usually go for the impaler, but rouser might be a better choice sometimes, because it has more hit points - discussing leadership seems to be useless because goblins are auxiliary attackers, thus building attack force based on them & rouser's leadership is a bad idea generally)
- it is 0 lvl unit - it's very important because most of the players forget that costs of lvl1 and higher level units is a cost of recruitment + costs of the upkeep = it's good to recruit goblins early, because usually during first attack phase enemy isn't usually strong enough to overwhelm your defences if you move well, and during your next powerphase you will have significant numerical superiority over him + you will save some money this way)

Only real disadvantage goblin has, is a lack of ZoC - aside from that, it's a perfect unit even for the price of 9 gp, newcomers and regular players seems to ignore vast advantages goblins give Northeners (because they don't know how to keep their units alive and +15hp goblin seems to be too frail for them), but lack of ZoC can be nullified by a good lvl1 and goblin units placement - sometimes you can build a deadly ZoC thanks to this little fellows!

If you ignore advantages goblins give northeners, you don't know how to play them properly.

that is way too sweeping a statement. many of us choose to ignore the advantages not because we do not know how to play northerners properly but because, in our opinion, their disadvantages generally outweigh their advantages. Not to say they have absoultely no use....but they're rather limited.

[ParadiseCity]

Goblins are an inegral part of certain strategies. For example, in a long game, you will want goblins to provide defense and offensive actions without the upkeep. However, you should very rarely get gobos if you are grunt rushing.

They can also be useful for stealing, or at least threatening villages. If you are going on a big offensive, you can send two or three to one side while the rest of your force goes to the other side. This way, the enemy still has to use lvl 1 units to guard those vills while you can devote more units to attacking the other side. If he doesn't guard the villages well, you can steal them and not attack as hard on the other side. Either way, it will still benefit you. (This is for 2 front maps, like caves of the Basilisk or Wendyln)

[Icarusvogel]

Except that it means that the player let you trap their cavalry (which is much more mobile than anything orcs have except wolfrider and maybe assassin) at an unfavorable ToD.

Believe me, the AI loves doing exactly that.

[Tonepoet]

If [goblins] are not slow they have above average speed because of their movetype.

While I said I'd drop out of the debate on the whole, I think this calls for special attention because I don't really see the logic behind this statement. A typical goblin scarcely seems on par to me. Sure, they're faster than 5 move humans and undead but when considering the entire pool of units overall, 5 move and a little terrain negation is pretty on par for the course for most races. Dwarves may only have 4 base but they completely ignore the three out of the four most common rough terrain types, so they're arguably faster even without the extra point of movement. Otherwise it seems like Saurians, Elves, Orcs and anything that flies, including the drakes, would be at least as fast, if not faster on a per unit basis. Finally, unlike the typical goblin, most units can get the quick trait, making them even faster. I could see how more goblins might cover more ground than most on the dollar, assuming they split up but that's different than speed, I think...

Perhaps I'm missing something though?

[Frogger5]

Man, goblins are quite an underdog, seriously.

Sure when you first fight them, they are as weak as... well goblins. But, when you find yourself using them in the mountains, against horses, or mages, or adepts, any level 0 unit, then they are right useful. Especially because they're cheap. Like every-other unit, they're outstanding when you put them in the right element.

[nedh88]

can anyone tell me when a goblin spearman is useful?

I am at a loss