Drakes vs Random, initial recruit

[Yoyobuae]

I play 1v1 only. Usually ladder to have a good opponent. Games last 7~15 turns (ie. initial recruits are still around)

But I can't think up a good initial recruit which doesn't leave completely messed up on one or another matchup.

My experience with the different options:

• Clashers: good
• Augurs: good, usually just one
• Fighters: ok, except vs drakes/loys
• Burners: ok, but nearly useless vs drakes
• Skirmishers: bad
• Gliders: bad

Again, this is my perceived experience with trying different combinations. Gliders seem more like burden for most of the game, they can't village steal without dieing (depending on map), have low damage (not a good thing on a drake) and are extraordinarily fragile (same hp as similar scouts but worst defense). Fighters are nice for their speed/low price (for drake standards that is) but recruiting more than one at start is quite risky if I end up facing loys, or worst, drakes. Burners are a very nice ranged unit, but the risk of facing drakes really forbids recruiting them early. Skirmishers depend too much on terrain and on average lower my army's resilience and damage output, I really like this unit but heavy presence of melee blade in Wesnoth really messes them up.

Something tells me that 1 augur + N clashers isn't precisely a good initial recruit. I guess adding one fighter is OK. But like this I feel early village grab to be very poor (no scout unit to grab those 7-8 hexes away villages). All in all, everything seem messed up right off the bat.

[Caphriel]

My experience is that recruiting with drakes against random is hard, possibly the hardest faction to recruit for against a random player. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Drakes don't have a good cheap cost-effective line unit. Furthermore, their units tend to be very good in certain matchups and awful in others. Burners suck against another drake; saurians in general are not so great against the undead, etc.

I think you're undervaluing fighters and gliders. Gliders are scouts, and having one (or two, depending on the map) to provide vision in the fog, or threaten village steals from the flanks, or use to trap an enemy trying to retreat, mean they're not worthless. Drake fighters are a good unit, and if you depend too heavily on the more durable and higher damage output clashers, you give up the advantage of the fighter's greater mobility. Burners, unfortunately, are pretty terrible against drakes, but sometimes you can get away with recruiting one.

My starting recruit against random tends to run 1-2 gliders, 1 clasher, 1 augur, 1 skirm, and the rest fighters, give or take a glider and a clasher, depending on the map. The augur and the skirmisher are a bit of a risk against the undead, but the augur's healing helps against ghouls, and I'll usually try to sacrifice the skirmisher for some positional advantage.

On the topic of fighters, they're good at killing augurs against another drake, and their extra MP and better movetype will sometimes let them get the extra hit in to finish off a wounded clasher. Also, their ranged retaliation damage against augurs during the day (4-3 vs the augur's 6-3) means augurs can't freely attack them at day like the can clashers. Against the loyalists, fighters are not good for attacking spearmen, but they are good for attacking bowmen or those pesky fencers that try to kill your saurians, and they retaliate against bowmen. In either of these matchups, you'll possibly not want to recruit more fighters than the 2-4 you started with unless you find them being useful because of your opponent's play.

Best thing you can do, though, is post replays for analysis.

[Velensk]

I would disagree with almost that entire list on the principle of that it works by unit type. I always choose my initial recruit based on my game plan. I also do not play ladder which allows me greater freedom to try riskier builds (in particular four+ saurians which is great for if you opponent isn't northerners or undead)

If I had to do it by unit type I would recommend every unit other than the burner (who I regard as a bit to slow and expensive to be good in the opening build). I find that skirmishers are critical for forcing your opponent to fall back to defend villages early to try to force them to surrender the initiative. Gliders are not as poor as you seem to think. I personally feel that fighters are generically more useful than clashers but getting only one of each will make it so that switching over isn't a problem. Drakes must gain and keep the initiative if they wish to win and even units as weak as the skirmisher and glider can be very useful for this.

[Yoyobuae]

Best thing you can do, though, is post replays for analysis.

They're on the ladder site basically, for example

• vs Loys on Freelands:
  http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A58%3A36
• vs Loys on Hornshark (please, disregard the sore loser behavior at the end):
  http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A28%3A53
• vs Northies on Silverhead:
  http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A08%3A38
• vs Rebels on Hamlets:
  http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A08%3A38
• vs Undead on Freelands:
  http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A08%3A38

Loys give me lots of trouble. I can sometimes do well against Rebels. Undead depends on which of the many tactics available to them the opponent uses. Northies depends on map, I can't handle a good rush well.

I also do not play ladder which allows me greater freedom to try riskier builds (in particular four+ saurians which is great for if you opponent isn't northerners or undead)

I'm not trying to climb the ladder. I'm just trying to learn to play well. For me the ladder is just a tool to play 1v1 vs good players and a site to upload my replays.

About gliders: I understand that being scouts they are useful for their sight, village stealing, ZoCing potential. But I find myself struggling to survive the initial strike (specially from loyalists), specially on maps where village stealing isn't that easy to pull off (say the all popular freelands). It seems to me that even one glider in those cases hurts more than helps.

[Velensk]

To me there is no point in the ladder if you do not try to climb it. You might as well just play with good players (and there are plenty of those who do not play ladder).

I will try to look at those replays and give better advice for them later (too tired right now) however to reply to your comments.

Your dislike of getting skrimishers in your inital build will give you trouble against loyalists. You need to pose enough of a threat on the first night to keep your enemy back so that their offense on the second day is relatively soft.

Gliders are effectively cheaper than they look if you can get one on the first turn to get to a village you would not otherwise be able to reach becaue grabbing that village an extra turn early is probably equivilent to an extra 3 gold or so plus faster mobilization. That last part is important especially when fighting loyalists. Even if you cannot steal a village if you can force an enemy to defend that village that can be quite useful. I rarely regret getting a glider on the first turn. Just don't do anything stupid with it and it can be a valueable resource for all the things you mentioned plus finishing off elusive enemies when you don't want to commit a stronger unit to the task.

I will however agree that it is a rare situation which prompts me to recruit a second at any point in the game.

[Euthanatos93]

Yeah definately grab gliders and a skirmisher.

Skirms are NOT useless vs. undead. That said, you're best bet is to recruit a skirm and maybe an auger and/or glider, grab villages till you can scout the enemy. Drakes have enough movement to compensate for delaying the main body of your recruitment and the little extra gold you'll recieve from under-recruiting at the beginning will help.

[silent]

The only thing I hate about gliders is getting a quick/intelligent one, they are simply far too weak and are near complete crap in the loyalist matchup being able to be one hit KO'd without needing to use a horseman.

I also think getting a glider depends on the map in question too. I would avoid buying one on hamelts since the map itself is just far too small to warrant it, IF you get a quick fighter or skirmisher in the right position in the keep. Den of Onis not really keen on getting one their either.

I find, on maps with 6 recruiting spaces, I would normally go with 2 fighters, a skirmisher, augur, clasher and a glider to maximize village grabbing. From that, I usually find second turn that I have at least x-2 villages on the map by then, where x is the max no. of villages. The only real problem I find is that my recruit normally equates to disaster vs loyalists, but the initial fighters can still be useful if they start to make bowmen/fencers, in response to when they see more clashers/saurians. (disclaimer: I haven't seemed to have gotten drakes often in multiplayer, much less vs good opponents, so this is just based off my experience randoming into them).

Hope this helps.

[Des]

To me there is no point in the ladder if you do not try to climb it. You might as well just play with good players (and there are plenty of those who do not play ladder).

There is more reason to playing ladder games than just gaining rank. I agree with Yoyobuae that the ladder can be simply a tool used for finding the games you want to play.

Ladder games are usually timed, standard 1v1 games (using map settings of the 1v1 maps, default era, etc…).

Non-ladder games are fun and useful. But sometimes, you want an opponent who takes the game seriously under those specific standards. Players just aren’t as committed to finishing a game if it’s non-ladder.

If you’re talking about improving play as time-effective as possible, I think ladder games are the way to do it, given the competitiveness is kept to a reasonable level.

I can experiment with the initial Drake recruits you guys have mentioned in this thread in a non-ladder game, but if my opponent is not taking the game seriously or doing experimenting of his own, then it’s not the best use of my time. Doing so in a ladder game against a decent opponent is another story.

It comes down to finding/having a friend list of good, serious opponents, and unfortunately making a non-ladder game opens a floodgate to any new player on the block. While high rank/win ratio doesn’t always correlate to skill, I feel it is easier to distinguish decent players from not-so-decent players on the ladder. At least they’re nick is consistent with each ladder game.

[Velensk]

All of what you say is true however none of it would compel me to play ladder.

[Des]

All of what you say is true however none of it would compel me to play ladder.

Oh no, I'm not trying to convert you. Just wanted to point out that rank isn't the only reason why other people play ladder. That's all.

[ParadiseCity]

Clashers: good
Augurs: good, usually just one
Fighters: ok, except vs drakes/loys
Burners: ok, but nearly useless vs drakes
Skirmishers: bad
Gliders: bad

I mainly recruit some of the above. Give or take a clasher depending on the size and structure of the map. It gives you extremely good mobility and village grabbing, and isn't too weak to any one type of opponent. Given a five recruit keep, I would get 2 fighters, 2 skirmishers, and one glider. I find that personally, this gives me enough flexibility to weather most types of games.

The one thing that is essential, however, is movement. Drakes need to keep moving, pressuring the opponent, and changing the rules of enagement otherwise they will be easily defeated by opponents, especially loyalists.

[Yoyobuae]

@ParadiseCity: Is that you're initial recruit when randomed into drakes or choosing them directly?

[Tonepoet]

Funnily, I think in an almost entirely different fashion, when it comes to initial recruits in particular:

I'd almost never recruit a Burner on the first turn, except on a whim. They're simply too expensive to risk being useless when fighting mirror matches and too comparatively immobile to help collect villages much. Save them for when you know what your opponent's unit build is so you can see if they'll be useful or not.

Gliders are great but I tend to view them as initial recruit exclusive units because much of their value, as mentioned before, is in reaching villages you normally couldn't touch for an extra 2-3 gold and the extra efficiency it adds to your mobilization. Sure the extra mobility a glider has can be used to great leverage for other points in a game, especially for nabbing villages but their statistics are a bit subpar without their turn one discount. They're the cheapest level one with at least 8 movement and really put that high number of movement points to good use with flight, allowing them to move in ways that really only the Gryphon rivals. Unless you count bats but who counts bats when they don't have Zone of Control?

In the past I've always used Clashers as my anti-pierce tank, and thusly a vital component of virtually any matchup. Nothing has changed to make them any worse at this than before but Saurians can do an arguably better job of it now. They're still the sturdiest unit in the faction though, so you'll very likely need one and although they still only have five MP and even less efficient at using it than the Burner but they're cheaper. It's also good to note that they have extra blade resistance, which is a very common damage type, which is to say nothing of their impact resistance. Having two damage types also gives them added versatility that few units share. I'd definitely recommend getting them, but only about one or two and only in positions where 5- movement can reach a village on turn 1.

Augurs: You need a ranged unit to attack meleeists with and this is the one I'd recommend using in the place of a burner. This is mostly due to the extra movement point and the fact that you're a bit less shafted if you get an Augur and end up facing undead, than you would be if you got a burner and ended up facing drakes, due to the price, ability and damage type on melee. Healing can add much sorely desired defensive capability in pretty much any other lineup.

Skirmishers: Meh, they're good units but I rarely see myself needing a skirmisher over a clasher/augur. They're units of opportunity mostly. They can be good against undead even but really only for the purpose of a surprise attack against adepts at night. I'd advise utilizing the money from turn one for more expensive things you need while you have the mass of funds. Other people report much success with getting these almost exclusively on Turn 1 in certain maps for strategic reasons: Chameleon Effect once said to me that this is a great way to start Den of Onis for example, so it's good to keep that in mind. I don't have much success with this myself though.

Fighters: The meat and potatoes of Drakes. They're a good example of both the trademark mobility and the high attack power of the faction. If you simply must bulk a unit on turn one for leverage, this is probably the one to choose, since they can position themselves for a strong initial attack rather easily. Perhaps most importantly to the initial recruit, while they're not really the most optimal unit for any situation, I also can't really think of a factional matchup where they perform below average either, making them a very safe pick for before you see through the fog. They also have a relatively good median price allowing you to get many and they can collect villages with more efficiency than any other unit, except the Glider naturally.

Also, I disagree that Fighters bad against loyalists but you'll definitely want to avoid attacking spearmen and horsemen directly with one because they're just not built well for that job. You'll mostly want to aim for their bowmen and possibly their fencers/mages if they get any to fight off your saurians.

Perhaps more importantly than the unit build, I find efficient village collection absolutely is absolutely vital, so I often find myself finding these general rules of thumb to the wind for the sake of building a proper unit speed proportion. It's still important to have a good mix of units though and I find these to be rather solid guidelines to work upon.

[Yoyobuae]

My main worry with Drake Fighters vs loyalists is the the very probable presence of Horsemen. These work just too well against them, making holding villages until first night a problem.

If I loose a village so quick, then it will be hard to recover on time for the second day attack. From there on things just get progressively worst.

Freelands in particular is a pain as P2 drakes vs P1 loyalists. It's very hard to pull off an initial attack and the lack of good terrain is really bad for saurians. And more importantly, there are 2 villages that are 8+ hexes away. Loys can capture these with Cavs/Horses but I'm limited to gettting just 1 such village with the a single Glider.

[Caphriel]

It's worth noting, Yoyobuae, that there are 8 villages on the Freelands, but only 6 recruiting hexes, so generally, nobody can capture all their villages on their second turn. One village is 9 hexes away from the nearest castle hex, which means that only quick units or elvish scouts can grab it on turn 2.

And if the Loyalists want to attack you over the first night, you should welcome them. If they want to trade a horseman for a fighter, great! If you recruited a couple of saurians in your first batch or two of recruits, you should slaughter them handily if they push at night, or at least do pretty good damage. As a drake player, you should be attacking Loyalists at night and running away during the day. If they come to you at night, that makes your job easier.