Advice on improvement? (replay)
Moderator: Forum Moderators
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Advice on improvement? (replay)
First off; I wasn't sure whether to put this in strategy or here, so I put it here as it's discussing more of self-improvement more than the game itself. If it's the wrong section, I'd appreciate for a mod to move it.
Now that that's out of the way; I've been playing BfW for two days now, and I'm absolutely in love with it. I'm a competitive RTS player, and thus am interested in getting good to start ladder play as soon as possible. I figure one way to help with that is getting critique, so I think I will regularly post replays (in this thread) to get advice.
Here's the first replay; it's against a Dwarvish computer on the basilisk map. The mistakes I can find on my own are the reckless abandon with the mage around turn 11ish, and late-game in general my play got sloppy as I got cockier.
I won the game... kind of. I was the clear victor, but to rush the game I decided to go for the enemy keep with my leader. That was a really dumb mistake because I got one-shotted by the Thunderguard leader of my opponent. Oops. A lesson learned the hard way!
Now that that's out of the way; I've been playing BfW for two days now, and I'm absolutely in love with it. I'm a competitive RTS player, and thus am interested in getting good to start ladder play as soon as possible. I figure one way to help with that is getting critique, so I think I will regularly post replays (in this thread) to get advice.
Here's the first replay; it's against a Dwarvish computer on the basilisk map. The mistakes I can find on my own are the reckless abandon with the mage around turn 11ish, and late-game in general my play got sloppy as I got cockier.
I won the game... kind of. I was the clear victor, but to rush the game I decided to go for the enemy keep with my leader. That was a really dumb mistake because I got one-shotted by the Thunderguard leader of my opponent. Oops. A lesson learned the hard way!
- Attachments
-
howami.gz- (23.3 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
AI isn't really good practice in standard multiplayer. Things that work against it won't work against a real player which makes it hard to give advice based on replays of games against it. That being said I'll try to give this one a go.
Commentary as I watch:
1: Generally better to stock up a bit more toughness in an inital recruit though yours isn't horrible you seriously lack killing power on the right side.
2: Highly inefficent village grabbing pattern. In a real match moving your forces like that would leave you incredibly vulnerable on the right side. A quick enemy unit could quite easily get a hold on your villages on that side and you simply would not have the force to remove them. This would allow them to freely play defensivly on the left side which is generally an advantage (especially to knalgans)
3: Turn 3 hurrah for AI stupidity
4: No comment
5: There was no reason to hurry killing the griffon. By simply placing a unit on either side of it you could limit it's movement to 1 hex in any direction. That way you could make sure that it could only reach units that it couldn't kill in one turn and cycle in other units later.
6: You've been forgetting to recruit, and you simply should not allow your enemy to gain acsess to your villages so easily.
7/8: no comment
9: hurrah for AI stuipidity again, it would have been better if you had grabbed his village before he put his guard on it. Guards are tough but they arn't great at offence and the village would have provided good defence and healing that they would have trouble dealing with.
10: If you're going to slow something it is ussually best to slow it before you attack with other units (lessens the retaliation)
11: Mermen seem rather redundant at this point. Just slowing down an enemy generally isn't worth while unless you are doing so to limit his attacking potential or you follow it up with some other unit. Because then your shaman is all on it's own and it isn't very tough (fortunatly guards arn't very strong)
12/13: no major comments
14: you don't need shamans. The problem with guards is not that they do a whole lot of damage, it is that they are tenatious. Slowing them down merely makes them do a bit less damage for a turn. To defend against them a fighter on good terrain works fine or a wose anywhere. To attack them, woses or mages at day time are ideal.
16: healing isn't cumulative. There is no need to send your leader. It wouldn't even help with the battle much.
17-20: no comment
21: pay more attention.
Your opponents statagy was miserable which makes it fairly hard to critisie your play to much. However you should really balance your flanks better. Against even an average opponent your lone scout would not have been able to stop him from village stealing and they would also do a better job of preventing your village stealing and holding the villages they do steal. Also any player who knows what they are doing would not sacrifice griffons so readily and after that the whole thing just spirals down.
EDIT: this kind of thing goes in strategy.
Commentary as I watch:
1: Generally better to stock up a bit more toughness in an inital recruit though yours isn't horrible you seriously lack killing power on the right side.
2: Highly inefficent village grabbing pattern. In a real match moving your forces like that would leave you incredibly vulnerable on the right side. A quick enemy unit could quite easily get a hold on your villages on that side and you simply would not have the force to remove them. This would allow them to freely play defensivly on the left side which is generally an advantage (especially to knalgans)
3: Turn 3 hurrah for AI stupidity
4: No comment
5: There was no reason to hurry killing the griffon. By simply placing a unit on either side of it you could limit it's movement to 1 hex in any direction. That way you could make sure that it could only reach units that it couldn't kill in one turn and cycle in other units later.
6: You've been forgetting to recruit, and you simply should not allow your enemy to gain acsess to your villages so easily.
7/8: no comment
9: hurrah for AI stuipidity again, it would have been better if you had grabbed his village before he put his guard on it. Guards are tough but they arn't great at offence and the village would have provided good defence and healing that they would have trouble dealing with.
10: If you're going to slow something it is ussually best to slow it before you attack with other units (lessens the retaliation)
11: Mermen seem rather redundant at this point. Just slowing down an enemy generally isn't worth while unless you are doing so to limit his attacking potential or you follow it up with some other unit. Because then your shaman is all on it's own and it isn't very tough (fortunatly guards arn't very strong)
12/13: no major comments
14: you don't need shamans. The problem with guards is not that they do a whole lot of damage, it is that they are tenatious. Slowing them down merely makes them do a bit less damage for a turn. To defend against them a fighter on good terrain works fine or a wose anywhere. To attack them, woses or mages at day time are ideal.
16: healing isn't cumulative. There is no need to send your leader. It wouldn't even help with the battle much.
17-20: no comment
21: pay more attention.
Your opponents statagy was miserable which makes it fairly hard to critisie your play to much. However you should really balance your flanks better. Against even an average opponent your lone scout would not have been able to stop him from village stealing and they would also do a better job of preventing your village stealing and holding the villages they do steal. Also any player who knows what they are doing would not sacrifice griffons so readily and after that the whole thing just spirals down.
EDIT: this kind of thing goes in strategy.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Thank you for the detailed post!
I am more than aware that AI is not a good opponent (as I said, I am a competitive RTS player), and it's not one I intend to stay with for long. However, I need to start somewhere. I'm still memorizing stats for everything and things like that in general.
As far as my initial recruit went; my plan was to focus on grabbing and holding the left while I used the lone scout to grab the villages on the right side and then perhaps distract the enemy a bit by grabbing their villages.
As for the rest of the post, I'm going to be sure to keep all of this in mind, and I'll post another replay soon of me utilizing this info for further critique.
The only thing I want to further comment on is about the leader - I was getting impatient near the end there because it was clear I had won. I planned to grab the enemy's keep and just churn out reinforcement from there, but I [censored] that plan up good. It's not something I would do in a real match, though.
Oh, and since I totally forgot to post anything about it in the OP though I meant to... elves are by FAR my preferred race. I love everything about how they are, and none of the other races interest me that much. So that's what all of my replays are going to be playing as.
EDIT: Here's the second match, taking Vel's advice. It's against a Drake computer, again on basilisk. I think I did significantly better this time, although I of course still made mistakes. I think the lack of buying Mermen really helps, as the lv1 isn't that useful for it's cost (weak damage output, no special ability, practically useless on land). Other than that, I think I'm also going to switch my leader. Druids are too fragile and it's hard to utilize their support role because they're your leader. I played sloppy near the end of this again (stopped recruiting, suicide rush), but that's something that will not happen against computer opponents. At least I didn't suicide my leader this time! All feedback welcome, of course.
I am more than aware that AI is not a good opponent (as I said, I am a competitive RTS player), and it's not one I intend to stay with for long. However, I need to start somewhere. I'm still memorizing stats for everything and things like that in general.
As far as my initial recruit went; my plan was to focus on grabbing and holding the left while I used the lone scout to grab the villages on the right side and then perhaps distract the enemy a bit by grabbing their villages.
As for the rest of the post, I'm going to be sure to keep all of this in mind, and I'll post another replay soon of me utilizing this info for further critique.
The only thing I want to further comment on is about the leader - I was getting impatient near the end there because it was clear I had won. I planned to grab the enemy's keep and just churn out reinforcement from there, but I [censored] that plan up good. It's not something I would do in a real match, though.
Oh, and since I totally forgot to post anything about it in the OP though I meant to... elves are by FAR my preferred race. I love everything about how they are, and none of the other races interest me that much. So that's what all of my replays are going to be playing as.
EDIT: Here's the second match, taking Vel's advice. It's against a Drake computer, again on basilisk. I think I did significantly better this time, although I of course still made mistakes. I think the lack of buying Mermen really helps, as the lv1 isn't that useful for it's cost (weak damage output, no special ability, practically useless on land). Other than that, I think I'm also going to switch my leader. Druids are too fragile and it's hard to utilize their support role because they're your leader. I played sloppy near the end of this again (stopped recruiting, suicide rush), but that's something that will not happen against computer opponents. At least I didn't suicide my leader this time! All feedback welcome, of course.
- Attachments
-
- howami2.gz
- Elves vs Drakes on Basilisk
- (18.41 KiB) Downloaded 171 times
Last edited by GestapoAnon on August 25th, 2009, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
A lone scout is not sufficient to grab all the villages on the right fast enough or hold them against an enemy who knows what they are doing.
Competitive multiplayer really does give an advantage to a player who can play all factions well and thus pick random. However this is in no way obligatory especially for a new player.
Competitive multiplayer really does give an advantage to a player who can play all factions well and thus pick random. However this is in no way obligatory especially for a new player.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Edited my 2nd post with another replay.
I can see that the lone scout in game 1 wasn't so smart, but in my defense I'm a newb.
I don't disagree with your statement about random. However, the problem is, as much as I love BfW elves are the only ones I really enjoy playing as. Most strategy games I can't even force myself to stick with one race (because I tend to like them all a lot), but here it's a different story. I realize this puts me at a moderate disadvantage in competitive play, of course, however it's something I'm willing to live with.
I can see that the lone scout in game 1 wasn't so smart, but in my defense I'm a newb.
I don't disagree with your statement about random. However, the problem is, as much as I love BfW elves are the only ones I really enjoy playing as. Most strategy games I can't even force myself to stick with one race (because I tend to like them all a lot), but here it's a different story. I realize this puts me at a moderate disadvantage in competitive play, of course, however it's something I'm willing to live with.
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
For future replays please post in the Strategy section. Also, you don't have to defend yourself. We know you're a newbie, that is why I'm making sure you know there's a problem.
Commenting on this one
1: Your initial recruit seems more balanced. You opponents was an utter mess. By shifting the scout and the archer on the right side you would have made it possible to grab 3 villages on turn 2 rather than 2.
2: Ideally it's best to grab the villages in back first, that way as soon as you are done grabbing villages your units are where they need to be to either defend or press depending on the situation (instead of in the back of your base grabbing those villages later). On the other side you could have used the shaman to take the cave village so that the fighter could be in range to capture the next village.
3: Artificial stupidity, we love it around here.
4: No comment
5:I probably would have not moved the shaman backwards to heal because I would rather send it forward to capture villages. The fighter could heal at the village and the archer was barely hurt.
6/7: No comment
8: If you had moved the archer all the way around to the other side of the clasher (to pin it) then it would not have had that moderate CtK against your leader
9: No major comments, it may actually be safer to send your leader to the village to start healing rather than covering in a woods but it doesn't really matter.
10: At that point it defiantly would be safer to start healing your leader. A leader 1-2 hits away from death in a 70% defense area is still more likely to die than a leader 4-5 hits to die in a 60% defense area. Not that it matters in this match, however keep it in mind.
11/12: no comment other than to remark on how strange the druid and shaman shifting looked.
13: a little more foresight in unit placement would have allowed you to get another archer to attack (as opposed to the scout). not that it really matters, just an exercise in space efficiency.
14: Fortunately for you, that incredible string of bad luck happened when it wouldn't affect the match. You could have minimized the damage by starting with the shaman though I can hardly blame you for not bothering.
Commenting on this one
1: Your initial recruit seems more balanced. You opponents was an utter mess. By shifting the scout and the archer on the right side you would have made it possible to grab 3 villages on turn 2 rather than 2.
2: Ideally it's best to grab the villages in back first, that way as soon as you are done grabbing villages your units are where they need to be to either defend or press depending on the situation (instead of in the back of your base grabbing those villages later). On the other side you could have used the shaman to take the cave village so that the fighter could be in range to capture the next village.
3: Artificial stupidity, we love it around here.
4: No comment
5:I probably would have not moved the shaman backwards to heal because I would rather send it forward to capture villages. The fighter could heal at the village and the archer was barely hurt.
6/7: No comment
8: If you had moved the archer all the way around to the other side of the clasher (to pin it) then it would not have had that moderate CtK against your leader
9: No major comments, it may actually be safer to send your leader to the village to start healing rather than covering in a woods but it doesn't really matter.
10: At that point it defiantly would be safer to start healing your leader. A leader 1-2 hits away from death in a 70% defense area is still more likely to die than a leader 4-5 hits to die in a 60% defense area. Not that it matters in this match, however keep it in mind.
11/12: no comment other than to remark on how strange the druid and shaman shifting looked.
13: a little more foresight in unit placement would have allowed you to get another archer to attack (as opposed to the scout). not that it really matters, just an exercise in space efficiency.
14: Fortunately for you, that incredible string of bad luck happened when it wouldn't affect the match. You could have minimized the damage by starting with the shaman though I can hardly blame you for not bothering.
Last edited by Velensk on August 25th, 2009, 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
-
Yogibear
- Retired Developer
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: September 16th, 2005, 5:44 am
- Location: Hamburg, Germany
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Becoming impatient is one of the worst mistakes you can make.
Between good players, especially if they are lawful and chaotic respectively, you can watch a constant pushing and pulling, moving units back and forth, depending on the time of day.
Once you get the upper hand, you easily make the mistake to push all the time because you feel you are stronger and want to make a fast end. Don't do that, keep on going back and forth, there is hardly anything to win, unless you outnumber your opponent by at least 2:1.
Between good players, especially if they are lawful and chaotic respectively, you can watch a constant pushing and pulling, moving units back and forth, depending on the time of day.
Once you get the upper hand, you easily make the mistake to push all the time because you feel you are stronger and want to make a fast end. Don't do that, keep on going back and forth, there is hardly anything to win, unless you outnumber your opponent by at least 2:1.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
@Vel: I didn't want to make a thread in strategy because I didn't want to have two threads for the exact same purpose. However, if you still think I should do it, I will.
Alright, thanks for posting more advice. On turn 2 I noticed the fighter/shaman thing RIGHT after I did it and regretted it. Turns 10-12: Hadn't really cared by this point, but would have done that properly if there was actually any threat. As for the rest, I'll keep it in mind etc. etc. and expect another replay sometime today. I appreciate your help a lot.
On the subject of replays; I found it rather odd how these forums lack anything like that. EVERY other RTS/TBS forum I've been on has an entire subforum in the strategies section for replays.
Oh, and
@Yogi
I'm aware; both times I've gotten impatient are when I have 75%+ villages and greatly outnumber the opponent, also against computers.
Alright, thanks for posting more advice. On turn 2 I noticed the fighter/shaman thing RIGHT after I did it and regretted it. Turns 10-12: Hadn't really cared by this point, but would have done that properly if there was actually any threat. As for the rest, I'll keep it in mind etc. etc. and expect another replay sometime today. I appreciate your help a lot.
On the subject of replays; I found it rather odd how these forums lack anything like that. EVERY other RTS/TBS forum I've been on has an entire subforum in the strategies section for replays.
Oh, and
I just noticed the irony in that, gave me a laugh.Fortunately for you, that incredible string of bad luck
@Yogi
I'm aware; both times I've gotten impatient are when I have 75%+ villages and greatly outnumber the opponent, also against computers.
Last edited by GestapoAnon on August 25th, 2009, 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
What we should probably really do is have a stickied thread for anyone who wants to post a replay and ask for advice instead of having little threads for every instance.GestapoAnon wrote: @Vel: I didn't want to make a thread in strategy because I didn't want to have two threads for the exact same purpose. However, if you still think I should do it, I will.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Here's a third game; I thought it would be later today but I got a chance to play another match now and so I did. I think I did significantly better this time, and without nearly as many as mistakes. The only major one I noticed while playing through, was that I had decided to retreat on one side until night (neutral vs lawful and all); I had my shaman and archer stay in position for ZoC while my mage backed off. The mistake I made there was where I just went with purchasing a new shaman and letting the other die, when I could have backed her off and kept both her and the mage alive instead of just the mage. Feedback welcome etc. etc.
One thing I'd like to say... I think I've got a decent hang of this already and while I want to move on to better opponents than computers (ie humans), I foresee a problem... playing against humans doesn't exactly guarantee a better opponent than a computer, because afaik there aren't stats that you can see for each player.
Edit: I decided to go with the less spammy option and just make another post in this thread instead of making a strategy thread for it.
One thing I'd like to say... I think I've got a decent hang of this already and while I want to move on to better opponents than computers (ie humans), I foresee a problem... playing against humans doesn't exactly guarantee a better opponent than a computer, because afaik there aren't stats that you can see for each player.
Edit: I decided to go with the less spammy option and just make another post in this thread instead of making a strategy thread for it.
- Attachments
-
- howami3.gz
- (16.37 KiB) Downloaded 144 times
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Feedback coming but in response to your comment: there is no built in rating system. You can join the unofficial ladder if you like but almost anyone you find on the server is better than the AI even if you don't go into ladder games. Also, do not be fooled into thinking that the ladder guarantees good matches. Many of the better players don't like the ladder for various reasons, and many of the people on the ladder have no idea what they are doing.
Give me a moment to comb through this replay.
EDIT: I'm getting kind of tired going over replays on this map. It was never one of my favorites.
1: Good recruit. Your opponent is overly fond of heavy infantry (sigh watching the AI would teach you what not to do some of the time)
2: No comment
3: It's turn 3, and thus we say "hurrah for artificial stupidity"
4: it's generally best to focus on one unit. In this case it would involve leaving your units in the open, but you could use formation/terrain to make it so that it's a bad idea to attack you still. Bit of bad luck with the shaman and more bad luck with the archer.
5/6: no comment
7: Placing the wounded scout in the village was a bad idea if you wanted to keep the scout or the village.
8: It probably would have been better to retreat this turn.
9: You already noted a few things about your problems this turn
10/11: No comment
Give me a moment to comb through this replay.
EDIT: I'm getting kind of tired going over replays on this map. It was never one of my favorites.
1: Good recruit. Your opponent is overly fond of heavy infantry (sigh watching the AI would teach you what not to do some of the time)
2: No comment
3: It's turn 3, and thus we say "hurrah for artificial stupidity"
4: it's generally best to focus on one unit. In this case it would involve leaving your units in the open, but you could use formation/terrain to make it so that it's a bad idea to attack you still. Bit of bad luck with the shaman and more bad luck with the archer.
5/6: no comment
7: Placing the wounded scout in the village was a bad idea if you wanted to keep the scout or the village.
8: It probably would have been better to retreat this turn.
9: You already noted a few things about your problems this turn
10/11: No comment
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
-
Yogibear
- Retired Developer
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: September 16th, 2005, 5:44 am
- Location: Hamburg, Germany
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Just askGestapoAnon wrote:One thing I'd like to say... I think I've got a decent hang of this already and while I want to move on to better opponents than computers (ie humans), I foresee a problem... playing against humans doesn't exactly guarantee a better opponent than a computer, because afaik there aren't stats that you can see for each player.
.I might be on the mp server later on this evening, just have a look for me and we can play a game, then. My nick is the same as in the forum.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
Alright, thanks for the replies yet again. I'll start changing map soon, I just need somewhere as a stepping stone so I don't have to get used to a new capping order every match while I'm still getting the hang of everything else.
I'll be gone for a while, but when I get back I'll look for you online, Yogi.
I'll be gone for a while, but when I get back I'll look for you online, Yogi.
-
forbiddian
- Posts: 30
- Joined: August 14th, 2009, 9:36 pm
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
GestapoAnon wrote:Alright, thanks for the replies yet again. I'll start changing map soon, I just need somewhere as a stepping stone so I don't have to get used to a new capping order every match while I'm still getting the hang of everything else.
I'll be gone for a while, but when I get back I'll look for you online, Yogi.
Yeah, I'm having the same problem jumping into MP matches. I'm also an ex-RTSer, and trying to learn the game. I'm up for a game (msg me on AIM).
I got some good advice from people in my thread, though: You can give the AI a gold over time handicap (it's the slider on the right at the start of the game) and/or a starting gold handicap. Slide this to the right until you lose. You should know from RTS that you don't learn anything from analyzing a win. The loser of the game gets to improve his play by figuring out what went wrong.
The AI is pretty inconsistent, though, based on your faction and its faction. Especially if you are particularly strong at a certain Time of Day and the AI is weak on that ToD, it will still suicide in and you can simply back off during the wrong ToD. I'd recommend you try Neutral vs. Neutral or a mirror match (or two factions with the same alignment).
It goes without saying that it would be better playing against a human, but it's tough to find humans at the "still learning the ropes" level. So yeah, hit me up for a game.
-
GestapoAnon
- Posts: 8
- Joined: August 25th, 2009, 2:09 am
Re: Advice on improvement? (replay)
I have to disagree heartily there, when you look at a replay you can see what mistakes you made that you may not have noticed in-game. Winning a game does not mean you played perfect.You should know from RTS that you don't learn anything from analyzing a win. The loser of the game gets to improve his play by figuring out what went wrong.