Problems with LOW-Hostile Mountains

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beetlenaut
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Problems with LOW-Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

This scenario is frustrating and makes no sense. You are told more than once not to step on the east side of the river, but you have to! I only discovered it accidentally. So, I have a few questions: Why do you have to keep the dwarf alive? Why do the trolls become his best buddies, no matter how damaged he is, when you step on his land? Why are you told not to when it's the only way to keep the trolls from killing him? Am I missing something huge?

Also, I have failed to win six or seven times. A dozen trolls and a new dwarf every turn are kind of a lot of enemies this early in the campaign. Maybe I could handle it if I could kill the dwarf and take his castle, but I'm not allowed to!
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by santi »

Hi beetlenaut,
You will see in subsequent scenaria why the dwarf must live.
Dwarfs are very protective of their territory, not to mention proud to fight anyone that steps on it.
I beat the scenario on hard quite easily, so it is definitely quite beatable the way it is ; in fact I consider it maybe too easy because the trolls attack the dwarfs. If you want, I can post a replay here. As a hint, try getting 2 scouts on the first round and send them to grab the villages west.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

santi wrote:I consider it maybe too easy because the trolls attack the dwarfs.
But the trolls beat the dwarves. Every time. I've seen Olurf dead as early as turn 7. How do I prevent that? This would be quite easy if I didn't have to worry about Olurf. The first time I played, I ignored him, and he held on until around turn 14, by which time I had just about won. (In fact, the first time, I didn't realize his death was a defeat condition. I saw a list of deaths listed in red, but assumed they were all my guys like normal. I should have read more carefully, but you have to admit it's not a normal condition. It would be clearer if it were mentioned in the dialog.)
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fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by fabi »

In the current svn version are several changes made to this scenario.

1. I limited the number of lvl3 Trolls on hard.
2. The trolls ai is tuned to target the elves instead of the dwarves.
3. The code that controls the dwarves behaviour if a side steps on their land is rewritten.

Maybe that changes fixed some of the issues.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

fabi wrote:2. The trolls ai is tuned to target the elves instead of the dwarves.
This will help, but if the elves aren't in range, the trolls will still happily attack the dwarves. Maybe you could add a line of impassible mountains south of the dwarves' keep so that there are some choke points for the dwarves to hold. You could make Olurf recruit mainly low-aggression guardsmen/stalwarts. They wouldn't do much damage (keeping it hard for the player), but would stay alive pretty well. Also, it would help if you made Olurf a passive_leader to keep him from doing a kamikaze charge into the trolls. (You could turn that off if the elves cross to his side, of course, though he should still preferentially attack elves.) My point is, you can do little or nothing to help Olurf survive, so he should be able to fend for himself pretty much indefinitely. It's not too hard for me right now, it's too hard for him.
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fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by fabi »

beetlenaut wrote:
fabi wrote:2. The trolls ai is tuned to target the elves instead of the dwarves.
This will help, but if the elves aren't in range, the trolls will still happily attack the dwarves. Maybe you could add a line of impassible mountains south of the dwarves' keep so that there are some choke points for the dwarves to hold. You could make Olurf recruit mainly low-aggression guardsmen/stalwarts. They wouldn't do much damage (keeping it hard for the player), but would stay alive pretty well. Also, it would help if you made Olurf a passive_leader to keep him from doing a kamikaze charge into the trolls. (You could turn that off if the elves cross to his side, of course, though he should still preferentially attack elves.) My point is, you can do little or nothing to help Olurf survive, so he should be able to fend for himself pretty much indefinitely. It's not too hard for me right now, it's too hard for him.
Well, be faster.
The point of this scenario is to interact with the dwarves in a profitable way. You can use them.
I did a playtest yesterday and was quite pleased with the current situation.

Can you try the svn version please?

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

I tried the svn. It was better. Only three trolls stayed to attack the dwarves. However, Olurf charged the last one and died. Even from a forest hex (the dummy) he had better than even chances, but I got unlucky. Would you be willing to make Olurf a passive_leader? How about passive unless a troll enters his castle? (Or the elves enter his land.)

(I had to restart, but eventually finished the level.)

There is a bug in the svn version: "<Invalid WML found> ...trying to recruit a mixed fighter but no unit of that type is available...for team 'Grugl.'" At least the game recovers after posting the message.
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fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by fabi »

beetlenaut wrote:I tried the svn. It was better. Only three trolls stayed to attack the dwarves. However, Olurf charged the last one and died. Even from a forest hex (the dummy) he had better than even chances, but I got unlucky. Would you be willing to make Olurf a passive_leader? How about passive unless a troll enters his castle? (Or the elves enter his land.)

(I had to restart, but eventually finished the level.)

There is a bug in the svn version: "<Invalid WML found> ...trying to recruit a mixed fighter but no unit of that type is available...for team 'Grugl.'" At least the game recovers after posting the message.
I will try to tune his ai parameters to be more cautious first.
If that fails we can fallback to make him a passive_leader.

Greetings, Fabi

Jozrael
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by Jozrael »

I came here intending on acting pretty much exactly the same way as beetlenaut, but it seems the problem has been resolved. Cheers on speedy work fabi :).

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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

Jozrael wrote:I came here intending on acting pretty much exactly the same way as beetlenaut
I don't recommend acting exactly like me. I was frustrated and grumpy.
Jozrael wrote:Cheers on speedy work fabi
Yes, thanks! I love open source communities.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by santi »

I am attaching a replay from 1.5.6+svn 31150. THis is still not what I was used to in old versions, where the trolls would target the elves more heavily. Note that expecting initial losses I sent initially new units
rather than my lv2 units, which only entered the fight at later stages. With trolls preoccupied with the dwarves, once their initial units on my side were clearead it was a picnic walk and I was also able to keep some units on the island to draw the trolls away from the dwarves and gain experience
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beetlenaut
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by beetlenaut »

santi wrote:I am attaching a replay from 1.5.6+svn 31150.
This is very different than what I saw last night. I played on normal, and Olurf charged south into the line of trolls every time, and sometimes got smooshed. That's why I said he should be passive. Probably the more-powerful trolls on hard made him choose to stay put. Maybe he should be passive only on easy and normal. (Maybe I should just play on hard.)
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by santi »

Like I said, I'd prefer the trolls to target the elves more heavily; that way we would not have to worry about the dwarf getting clobbered and we'd have a harder scenario(at least on hard). But then again people may complain it's too hard, so such choices are not easy.

bunti
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by bunti »

Hi together,

I had to play the level in the old version (trolls attack draws) 3 or 4 times, too .My solution was to lure some trolls into the water with scouts which were fast enough to get there early enough. Then I finsihed them off with my regular troops. It was was not a sure thing but quite exiting, so I really liked it.

Olurf was in my opinion to active, too. But I liked the idea to generate a diversion for the draws, so personally I would think about giving the old version a modified try.

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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 2 - Hostile Mountains

Post by santi »

The original idea was that it might be worth to put a unit still outside dwarvish land, but in territory only accessible(to attack it that is) from dwarvish land. that way one might sacrifice a unit to entice the trolls to step on dwarvish land to attack it and hence get the dwarves on the players side.
However later on it was considered best to get the trolls to attack the elves
most and hence get a tough scenario.

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