Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
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Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
I am drafting this because as most of you know, the vast majority of Wesnoth players don't know how to play. I hope rather than repeating myself in every game I can just send newbies to this thread. This advice is for the NEW player, to try and make the game more basic to play. The goal is to help noobs get yelled at less. A lot of these rule won't apply to great players, but new players should follow them to because they make the game more basic.
1A. Wesnoth is incredibly hard to learn. So, observe lots of games. Ladder games are great to observe!
1B. Wesnoth is hard to learn. So, Listen to your partners. Even if he/she is completely wrong, LISTEN to him/her, and try what he/she suggests. If you lose because of the strategy, perhaps they will learn something. Do not take it as an insult when people try and help you learn because Wesnoth is extremely difficult to learn. Listening to your teammates provides a "short cut" in the learning process. Expect Wesnoth to take between 6 months and a year to learn.
2. Always respect time of day. With chaos attack at Dusk, retreat at Dawn. Do not make an exception to this rule until you've learned to play. With lawful Always attack at dawn, and retreat at dusk. If you are Elf and Loyal, and your fighting a dwarf and a orc, that means you are lawful! Not neutral! So, always attack at dawn, retreat at dusk.
3. NEVER go into the water with a land unit, NEVER got into the land with a water unit. Do not do it even to take a kill! Always better to keep your unit alive. If you have the choice between losing a unit and keeping a unit, keep the unit. Take kills when your trading cheap ones for expensive ones, or when you can kill without losing in return.
4. ALWAYS recruit with your leader. NEVER skip recruiting. Do not skip recruiting for leadership, or to attack naga's or to do anything else. Your leader's job is to recruit. You will see advanced players running around with leaders in the fight, THIS IS NOT A SAFE TACTIC. As a new player, you MUST keep your leader in the keep. ONLY move the leader in these cases:
a. To claim empty villages
b. To attack within range of your keep so you can recruit next turn
c. To heal.
Never go 2 places out from your base to attack, you will lose the game, and probably your leader. KISS Keep it simple stupid. Recruit with leader, Fight with army... BUT if someone moves within range of your leader, recruit first then smoke him!
5. Never move within range of the enemy leader unless the game is won! If the enemy leader can attack you, don't move there. Check his range by highlighting him. Make the enemy come to you if he wants to use his leader on you, he will lose the game.
6. If you have the choice between attacking and claiming a safe village, generally claim the village. Villages ALWAYS give gold, attacking will most likely miss. Sometimes going for the kill is good, but generally taking the village is better. This does not mean STEAL enemy villages, only reclaim safe villages.
7. Read the "howtoplay" series and learn to recruit correctly. For every match up, there is a correct way to recruit. Open the series when you play, and recruit according to the thread.
8. When choosing between two targets. Take the one that returns the least damage to you, and is the easiest to hit. Hit range units with melee, and melee units with range. Do NOT hit ranged units with range. Do not hit higher defense units when low defense units are present. (The exception is when you have a high chance to kill) Generally go for the softest targets. Match melee to range, range to melee, your enemy will do the same.
9. The winner of Wesnoth is the one who attacks first, at the best time of day, from the best terrain, with the best units, and keeps the most income. If you have time of day and terrain on your side it is hard to lose.
10. If you don't know what to recruit, get mostly fighters. (elf fighter, Dwarf fighter, Spearmen, Grunt/troll, Drake Fighter/Clasher). As a new player its going to be very confusing what to buy... so stick to the hceap stuff that puts down a lot of damage. Once you get the hang of the game, you'll get a better feeling for how to mix other specialized units into your game.
RNG RULE: Never blame the random number generator. Instead always take responsibility for your choices. Even if it makes you miss 10 times in a row, there is always a better move to make, and if you made the better move, maybe you'd win despite the bad misses. Instead of focusing on how you didn't draw the number you wanted, focus on how to win expecting to miss a lot.
The RNG will affect your games heavily, but its important to remember your goal is to win most of your games. If you take some rotten luck, consider it a handicap match. But, always remember, losses are almost always your fault. Great players win with rotten luck, and dominate with good luck. Bad players win with great luck, and lose the rest of the time. So, strive to be a great player, and savor the games with bad luck, as those are the ones that allow you to prove your worth!
~Chains
1A. Wesnoth is incredibly hard to learn. So, observe lots of games. Ladder games are great to observe!
1B. Wesnoth is hard to learn. So, Listen to your partners. Even if he/she is completely wrong, LISTEN to him/her, and try what he/she suggests. If you lose because of the strategy, perhaps they will learn something. Do not take it as an insult when people try and help you learn because Wesnoth is extremely difficult to learn. Listening to your teammates provides a "short cut" in the learning process. Expect Wesnoth to take between 6 months and a year to learn.
2. Always respect time of day. With chaos attack at Dusk, retreat at Dawn. Do not make an exception to this rule until you've learned to play. With lawful Always attack at dawn, and retreat at dusk. If you are Elf and Loyal, and your fighting a dwarf and a orc, that means you are lawful! Not neutral! So, always attack at dawn, retreat at dusk.
3. NEVER go into the water with a land unit, NEVER got into the land with a water unit. Do not do it even to take a kill! Always better to keep your unit alive. If you have the choice between losing a unit and keeping a unit, keep the unit. Take kills when your trading cheap ones for expensive ones, or when you can kill without losing in return.
4. ALWAYS recruit with your leader. NEVER skip recruiting. Do not skip recruiting for leadership, or to attack naga's or to do anything else. Your leader's job is to recruit. You will see advanced players running around with leaders in the fight, THIS IS NOT A SAFE TACTIC. As a new player, you MUST keep your leader in the keep. ONLY move the leader in these cases:
a. To claim empty villages
b. To attack within range of your keep so you can recruit next turn
c. To heal.
Never go 2 places out from your base to attack, you will lose the game, and probably your leader. KISS Keep it simple stupid. Recruit with leader, Fight with army... BUT if someone moves within range of your leader, recruit first then smoke him!
5. Never move within range of the enemy leader unless the game is won! If the enemy leader can attack you, don't move there. Check his range by highlighting him. Make the enemy come to you if he wants to use his leader on you, he will lose the game.
6. If you have the choice between attacking and claiming a safe village, generally claim the village. Villages ALWAYS give gold, attacking will most likely miss. Sometimes going for the kill is good, but generally taking the village is better. This does not mean STEAL enemy villages, only reclaim safe villages.
7. Read the "howtoplay" series and learn to recruit correctly. For every match up, there is a correct way to recruit. Open the series when you play, and recruit according to the thread.
8. When choosing between two targets. Take the one that returns the least damage to you, and is the easiest to hit. Hit range units with melee, and melee units with range. Do NOT hit ranged units with range. Do not hit higher defense units when low defense units are present. (The exception is when you have a high chance to kill) Generally go for the softest targets. Match melee to range, range to melee, your enemy will do the same.
9. The winner of Wesnoth is the one who attacks first, at the best time of day, from the best terrain, with the best units, and keeps the most income. If you have time of day and terrain on your side it is hard to lose.
10. If you don't know what to recruit, get mostly fighters. (elf fighter, Dwarf fighter, Spearmen, Grunt/troll, Drake Fighter/Clasher). As a new player its going to be very confusing what to buy... so stick to the hceap stuff that puts down a lot of damage. Once you get the hang of the game, you'll get a better feeling for how to mix other specialized units into your game.
RNG RULE: Never blame the random number generator. Instead always take responsibility for your choices. Even if it makes you miss 10 times in a row, there is always a better move to make, and if you made the better move, maybe you'd win despite the bad misses. Instead of focusing on how you didn't draw the number you wanted, focus on how to win expecting to miss a lot.
The RNG will affect your games heavily, but its important to remember your goal is to win most of your games. If you take some rotten luck, consider it a handicap match. But, always remember, losses are almost always your fault. Great players win with rotten luck, and dominate with good luck. Bad players win with great luck, and lose the rest of the time. So, strive to be a great player, and savor the games with bad luck, as those are the ones that allow you to prove your worth!
~Chains
Last edited by chains on October 12th, 2008, 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
Axiom amended by Elven King: Resist the urge to attack. New players are often overwhelmed with the desire to kill the enemy. Sometimes, the best course of attack, is to hold the good ground and let your opponent do something stupid first. Choosing when to attack is one of the most difficult aspects of Wesnoth. As a new player you should time your attacks with the best time of day for your faction. If you are Lawful Vs Chaos, attack at Dawn, if your Chaos vs Lawful attack at dusk. If it's a mirror match, it becomes VERY difficult to play.
As a new player in a team game, it is a-ok to hang out in your villages until your teammate is yelling at you to attack. It is VERY hard to lose a game when your units are in villages. So, when you don't know what to do: hold those villages, and defend yourself! Only attack when you're confident you will win the exchange; like when you have better time of day, and greater numbers.
As a new player in a team game, it is a-ok to hang out in your villages until your teammate is yelling at you to attack. It is VERY hard to lose a game when your units are in villages. So, when you don't know what to do: hold those villages, and defend yourself! Only attack when you're confident you will win the exchange; like when you have better time of day, and greater numbers.
Last edited by chains on October 13th, 2008, 2:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
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Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
I know you quoted this above as something to read, but my point is that the following:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11161
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/GettingStarted
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AdvancedTactics
not only cover all that you just did, but are in a much more centrally located format. Your thoughts are great and writing out the more pertinent tips from the strategy guide is useful. But given a few weeks when this thread is buried back in the abyss of pages 2+ with all of the others, people will have to revert to those.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11161
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/GettingStarted
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AdvancedTactics
not only cover all that you just did, but are in a much more centrally located format. Your thoughts are great and writing out the more pertinent tips from the strategy guide is useful. But given a few weeks when this thread is buried back in the abyss of pages 2+ with all of the others, people will have to revert to those.
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Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
Berried or not, people still talk to me about my Isar's guide . It would be nice if it had an easier method to be found other than Google "Isars guide" But, this will be found by people who are looking for "Wesnoth Tips". If you have any suggestions for how to make tutorials easier to find that would be great. When I get unlazy, I am going to start making video tutorials.
I am very happy you have included the main howto's for Wesnoth, I had forgotten to do that myself. People don't like to read. So, it is my goal to build a short list of 10 axioms that will take someone from a newbie status to someone I can stand playing a game against.
The current guides are really wordy and don't get right to the heart of the matter. I'd like to have something that is short and to the point that I can use to train my partners with. That's why I am building this thread. As for visibility, I absolutely agree that is an issue. But, first I have to create great writing, then I will worry about how to share it. And for that I need feedback. Once I have a solid list I can use, perhaps I can link it from the ladder page.
I am very happy you have included the main howto's for Wesnoth, I had forgotten to do that myself. People don't like to read. So, it is my goal to build a short list of 10 axioms that will take someone from a newbie status to someone I can stand playing a game against.
The current guides are really wordy and don't get right to the heart of the matter. I'd like to have something that is short and to the point that I can use to train my partners with. That's why I am building this thread. As for visibility, I absolutely agree that is an issue. But, first I have to create great writing, then I will worry about how to share it. And for that I need feedback. Once I have a solid list I can use, perhaps I can link it from the ladder page.
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
I think allot of your advice is to rigid.
Everything is based on circumstances. For example, it is often worthwhile to move water units onto land and vice versa. It may be that you need an emergency wall, or it may be that that water unit is the only one who can finish off a unit who would otherwise retreat to heal, or it may be that if you kill the unit there will be no unit left to take advantage of your low defence. It is often worthwhile to attack or defend with your leader. You must keep him safe, but the value of an extra lvl 2 in combat will often be worth it. It is also occasionaly worth it to choose to attack a unit that would do more damage in retaliation than another because eliminating that unit would be more usefull than attacking another (for example, it is often worth it for dark adepts to attack mages, because mages are expensive, and one of the greatest threats to an undead force, now it might be better to attack with a skeloton, but one might not be available).
Everything is based on circumstances. For example, it is often worthwhile to move water units onto land and vice versa. It may be that you need an emergency wall, or it may be that that water unit is the only one who can finish off a unit who would otherwise retreat to heal, or it may be that if you kill the unit there will be no unit left to take advantage of your low defence. It is often worthwhile to attack or defend with your leader. You must keep him safe, but the value of an extra lvl 2 in combat will often be worth it. It is also occasionaly worth it to choose to attack a unit that would do more damage in retaliation than another because eliminating that unit would be more usefull than attacking another (for example, it is often worth it for dark adepts to attack mages, because mages are expensive, and one of the greatest threats to an undead force, now it might be better to attack with a skeloton, but one might not be available).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
Rigidity is the point of the guide. Flexibility makes things too complicated to learn. If you can make yourself a rigid set of rules which you can follow 90% of the time... you will do better with a lot less thought. You can first learn the rules, then and only then start to work out the exceptions! While we can try and complicate a guide with "what if" after "what if" It is my hope that I can create a small set of principles or axioms by which Wesnoth can be played.
I'm not saying there aren't better moves, what I am saying is: if you follow my 10 rules, no one will yell at you for being a "n00b". Sure you might miss out on some great move where a water unit actually does well on a land hex for 1 turn... but the amount of complexity that has to exist for that to come up is rare. New players should stick to the basics. Water units in the water, land units in the land.
As for attacking with your leader, this is one of the most difficult aspects of the game, and I strongly believe newbies should avoid this as it will simply result in loads of unspent gold. An extra level two unit isn't worth more than 2 recruits... so If you skip several recruiting turns, you probably nullified the use of your leader... and you run the risk of losing the game on a poor move. Best left to the advanced players.
As for attacking mages with adepts... Use your skeleton and ghouls on the mages, and adepts on the fighters. Simple. Sure there are times when a mage is on 60%... and a 1 shot from an adept will take it down, but this is not the most common case, and if a player sticks to the basics of "range on melee" "melee on range" they will do better than the vast majority of players.
All to often I see new players attacking archers with adepts, getting no kill, losing 50% of 2 adepts, and then wondering why "stupid luck" just cost them the game. Or, I watch someone pull out a leader, take 2 attacks with it, get zero kills and then lose the game because they have 40 gold unspent. Or I watch someone pull a naga onto land to take a 2 hit kill... miss 3 times, then lose the naga for nothing.
I'm not saying there aren't better moves, what I am saying is: if you follow my 10 rules, no one will yell at you for being a "n00b". Sure you might miss out on some great move where a water unit actually does well on a land hex for 1 turn... but the amount of complexity that has to exist for that to come up is rare. New players should stick to the basics. Water units in the water, land units in the land.
As for attacking with your leader, this is one of the most difficult aspects of the game, and I strongly believe newbies should avoid this as it will simply result in loads of unspent gold. An extra level two unit isn't worth more than 2 recruits... so If you skip several recruiting turns, you probably nullified the use of your leader... and you run the risk of losing the game on a poor move. Best left to the advanced players.
As for attacking mages with adepts... Use your skeleton and ghouls on the mages, and adepts on the fighters. Simple. Sure there are times when a mage is on 60%... and a 1 shot from an adept will take it down, but this is not the most common case, and if a player sticks to the basics of "range on melee" "melee on range" they will do better than the vast majority of players.
All to often I see new players attacking archers with adepts, getting no kill, losing 50% of 2 adepts, and then wondering why "stupid luck" just cost them the game. Or, I watch someone pull out a leader, take 2 attacks with it, get zero kills and then lose the game because they have 40 gold unspent. Or I watch someone pull a naga onto land to take a 2 hit kill... miss 3 times, then lose the naga for nothing.
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
I've got to agree with chains on this. New players don't have the knowledge of the game to be able to judge when the exceptions are safe.
I broke every one of those rules when I first started, not because I was could see what a great move it was going to be, but because all I wanted to do was attack and destroy my opponent; I didn't know the above rules so I did them all the time, instead of only on the rare occasions where they would of actually worked. New players tend to want to constantly attack; they give no thought to what will happen to their units, or how it will effect the game in the long run. These rules are for those players.
I was like that until I got a mentor named chains, who taught me the importance of these above rules. I turned in to a reasonable player because I learnt and followed those rules, after many games I then had the experience to tell when the exceptions were. If you try to teach rare exceptions to a player whose only thought is to constantly attack it will just confuse them; they need to have learned the basics before you start trying to teach them about rare exceptions.
I broke every one of those rules when I first started, not because I was could see what a great move it was going to be, but because all I wanted to do was attack and destroy my opponent; I didn't know the above rules so I did them all the time, instead of only on the rare occasions where they would of actually worked. New players tend to want to constantly attack; they give no thought to what will happen to their units, or how it will effect the game in the long run. These rules are for those players.
I was like that until I got a mentor named chains, who taught me the importance of these above rules. I turned in to a reasonable player because I learnt and followed those rules, after many games I then had the experience to tell when the exceptions were. If you try to teach rare exceptions to a player whose only thought is to constantly attack it will just confuse them; they need to have learned the basics before you start trying to teach them about rare exceptions.
Last edited by ElvenKing on October 13th, 2008, 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
While I agree completely with all of the strategy that Velensk suggests, I know what you're getting at Chains and I agree that your idea of rigidity for this guide is what the new players need.
It's a great deal easier for someone to learn how to do something, then learn the exceptions in which it's okay to do the opposite. They have the base knowledge that allows them to understand the how to play the game passably well, and then learn all the advanced tips and strategies that help to deal with long-term strategy for the whole battle.
It's a great deal easier for someone to learn how to do something, then learn the exceptions in which it's okay to do the opposite. They have the base knowledge that allows them to understand the how to play the game passably well, and then learn all the advanced tips and strategies that help to deal with long-term strategy for the whole battle.
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Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
I see what is happening here. You are are annoyed by the incompitance of the people you play team multiplayer with, and you are hoping that they will read this. (I somehow missed this when reading the origional post.) I wish you best of luck, but then again I also wish that my allies and opponents would use common sense in their play.
I ussualy try to avoid this, by either not playing teams, playing teams when I'm in a light mood, or by playing teams with a player I know.
As a minor note: one of your responces ignored the qualification I placed on my point, I said that there might not be a skeloton available.
I ussualy try to avoid this, by either not playing teams, playing teams when I'm in a light mood, or by playing teams with a player I know.
As a minor note: one of your responces ignored the qualification I placed on my point, I said that there might not be a skeloton available.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: Wesnoth Tips. (Team Game)
@chains
I disagree that Wesnoth is terrible hard to learn but sometimes I see your point.
- I would suggest hat you put in the advice to not ! take positions without a strategy .I often see lonly exposed skeletons, dwarfs etc. without backup at the frontline. Neither serving as a vanguard for an attack or guarding aginst any thread. Worse peopel ignore mages etc in attack range. So they die one by one like lemmings without purpose and sense....
- Regarding the discusion with leaders when to attack etc. I agree its hard to time right and retret on time.
I disagree that Wesnoth is terrible hard to learn but sometimes I see your point.
- I would suggest hat you put in the advice to not ! take positions without a strategy .I often see lonly exposed skeletons, dwarfs etc. without backup at the frontline. Neither serving as a vanguard for an attack or guarding aginst any thread. Worse peopel ignore mages etc in attack range. So they die one by one like lemmings without purpose and sense....
- Regarding the discusion with leaders when to attack etc. I agree its hard to time right and retret on time.