Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyalist)

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Cackfiend
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Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyalist)

Post by Cackfiend » April 17th, 2007, 7:12 am

So i've been playing drakes pretty much non stop for about a month and a half now trying to get really good at them. In the 1v1's ive played so far i'd say easily the hardest matchups I get are vs good loyalist and rebel players. I just cant seem to find a decent counter to either mass spearman or mass archers. I feel these matchups can be very close but with an edge to the rebels and loyalist. IMO if luck goes more than a little heavy sided for the rebel or loyalist they win about every time which means in order for me to win I need ev to be pretty close to actual dmg or EV to be in my favor.

Mass saurian skirmishers will sometimes be a nice counter but I find theyre just too unpredictable. Clashers can work nice but they dont retaliate vs archers and they still take lots of dmg from spearman. Mass augurs can work but smart players stay away from them at night. A big mix of units seems to work pretty well but its very unpredictable. I would really like to find a good solid counter vs mass archers or mass spearman.




any suggestions by some of the better drake players out there?
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Re: Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyali

Post by Ultimatum479 » April 17th, 2007, 9:56 am

Cackfiend wrote:Mass augurs can work but smart players stay away from them at night.
You're far more mobile than them. Shouldn't YOU stay away from THEM during the day then?
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Post by unsung » April 17th, 2007, 10:35 am

I don't really play drakes, but I think that clashers, saurians,and burners could be a problem for spears.
I'm just going off of what would annoy me most though-I could be wrong.
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Post by Noyga » April 17th, 2007, 11:04 am

The key is to use the drake strength : mobility : attack the enemy where you can really hurt him and avoid to expose too much your units.
Don't try to hold a position, drakes are not made for that.
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Post by Doc Paterson » April 17th, 2007, 1:24 pm

If you want specific answers about specific situations, post the replay of your game with "c," and we'll get down to it. Generalities like "use mobility," while true and useful to an extent, may not be what you're looking for.
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Post by Cackfiend » April 17th, 2007, 4:03 pm

both replays i have vs c when he was loyalist would not be good examples at all
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Re: Drakes vs Mass Archers (Rebels) or Mass Spearman (Loyali

Post by Cackfiend » April 17th, 2007, 4:12 pm

Ultimatum479 wrote:
Cackfiend wrote:Mass augurs can work but smart players stay away from them at night.
You're far more mobile than them. Shouldn't YOU stay away from THEM during the day then?

you really bug me for some reason

do you actually play wesnoth? i have yet to see you in the lobby


if you have actually played as drakes vs mass archers you would know that elven archers are very very quick and hard to get away from. 6 or 7 movement points and they only use 1 mp for forest. Clashers and Saurians take 2 movement to go through forest and clashers only move 5 or 6. The only way to (almost) always outrun an elf would be with drake fighters... but that would be a horrible idea and elves dont chase much in the first place.


loyalist are a little easier to out run but at the same time they usually have 1 or two horsemen ready to pounce if you do it sloppy, and if you do it organized you're probably going to be in range of some quick spearman.




still wondering what is a good tactic vs mass spearman or mass archers
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Post by Clonkinator » April 17th, 2007, 4:51 pm

Try to get lots of burners against both rebels and loyalists. Burners will take out spearmen fairly easily, but you'll have to watch out for the enemies' counter attack his following turn. Against rebels burners take out fighters at day and still do massive retaliation-damage against archers. Also get more saurians than usual to fight against them due to their pierce-resistance, but you should be able to use them well, otherwise they won't really help you. You'll be surprised how massively an enemy can be damaged by counter-damage :D. However, retreat your wounded drakes early enough, and try to avoid fighting rebels at night. Oh, and try to lure your enemies on bad terrain. Don't fight elves in forest as an example. That should be all :wink:. Good luck.

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Post by Zatz » April 17th, 2007, 5:17 pm

The general drake strategy of using mobility to have an effect on battlefield has to be used. Keep a mobile strike force of burners, fighters, 1 glider, drake flare and try and secure attacks on weak places if they overcompensate attack elsewhere. Drakes aren't made to stand and fight with anyone. So don't station troops in villages or defensive location defend with the threat of your highly mobile flying troops.

Use mobility to stretch line. Move side to side. Concede ground for a vicious counterattack. Threaten village stealing so they have to keep troops within 1 move vicinity. Allow them to have an offensive on a weak flank at night when you may lose a villages or a troop in knowledge your main army will arrive to trap them and gain you 3/4 kills at day break.

Try never to stand next to forest hexes. Simple but effective. Infact just generally stay away from hi defense the 20% water tile with some water and grassland around may be better to stand on than that hill with forest next to it. Simply cause your high hp can keep you alive from a few attacks and the threat of you massacring them in open next turn Keeps you safe.

If the map in anyway resembles a corridor where you cant avoid head on collisions goner have trouble. I think there are some ideas.

vs massed archers

Get them out the forests!

Massed clashers or fighters with the odd augur to deal with their aggression at night. Try not to get to many augurs or it confuses when you should be attacking and they are very fragile.
Thankfully archers are frail and do cost 17 gold so trading a clasher for 1 and something else like another exposed archer is ok.

vs massed spearmen

Should attack at night your army will have slight edge from saurians. Drakes also can show they are strong.

3 augurs 2 Burners 4 clashers would be about the ratio id go with. Attack first with augurs and burners and mop up with clashers.

If you mobility is gaining you 120 vs 100 gold mini battles you can beat the defensive percentages.

many regards

Just in case you forget mobility mobility mobility!
running away is the most underrated tactic

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Post by Doc Paterson » April 17th, 2007, 5:42 pm

Cackfiend wrote:both replays i have vs c when he was loyalist would not be good examples at all
Why's that?
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Post by nebula955 » April 18th, 2007, 5:52 am

I have been playing drakes a lot recently and had some success.

Against Loyalists
Depending on ur starting gold, you can have different strategies.
Remember, Drakes need to attack first and in full force. They can not ever do defense. Saurians can be useful but not needed against loyalists. I found that leadership helps a lot in bumping up ur damage.
Strategy: Lots of burners
Burners and spearmen do equal damage to each other but you attack first. So if you have leadership, then you do 9-4 (vs 7-4 without leadership) in daylight. With two burners you can often kill a spearman. You also do more retaliation damage than the spearmen and have more hp to take more hits. So if two spearmen in daylight with leadership does 12-3 to you, you still do 10-2 back, which is better than the spearman's 9-1. Cover ur burners with clashers immediately but do not necessarily attack with them. Clashers with leadership will also do 9-4 or 10-4 if strong. Saurians can be useful at night, but you may want to spend all of ur gold on drakes for one massive strike.

Against Rebels:
Strategy: Lots of Clashers
Clashers with leadership do 9-4 in daylight. Even just one lucky clasher can often kill an elvish archer. Do not attack archers in forests(other terrain is fine). Organize it so that the archers will have to leave forest to attack you. If he does, then destroy him. you have more hp. A resilient/nonquick clasher has 50+hp, meaning that if an archer does 5-4 and hits 3 times in grass, the rebel player need at least 4 archers to kill ur one clasher. Then you can simply kill the archers that leave forest. Augurs can also help a lot, but again, not absolutely necessary.

However, I have not yet found a good plan against thunderers. Those things seem to always hit me and are not as frail as elves.

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Post by Sapient » April 18th, 2007, 6:24 am

Mass archers is a horrible strategy, even against drakes. Their hp/price ratio means that they will be ineffective for certain roles.
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Post by Cackfiend » April 18th, 2007, 6:33 am

mass spearman is a horrible strategy too imo


but it seems to work pretty consistently :P
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Post by Yogin » April 18th, 2007, 7:15 am

Mass anything is a poor strategy. If you're having trouble countering a mass-unit X strategy, the first thing you should think about is what is unit X's weak points? What are unit X's strong points? Then how can you exploit unit X's weak points? How can you obviate unit X's strong points?

Elvish Archer:
strengths: good ranged damage, pierce dmg, decent mobility, forests
weaknesses: low hp. slow in hills/mountains, neutral.

How to exploit weaknesses:
  • (1) low hp - easy to kill with strong attacks on moderate defense, eg. clasher @ day;
    (2) poor defense in hills/grass: force it onto these - how? make them assault you;
    (3) it's neutral; attack during your time of day.
How to obviate strengths:
  • (1) good ranged pierce damage: attack with melee, defend with range: when presenting a target to the elves, present a burner, not a clasher;
    (2) pierce: use saurians;
    (3) mobility: not really much of an issue - drakes have greater mobility - steal villages with gliders and saurians, since they both have even better mobility than archers. force the archers to go through hills/mountains to slow them down, or even better, to stop in grass;
    (4) forest: (a)attack with magical: augur @ night, gliders as finisher (b)attack with higher # of attacks for kills: not fighters, (c)lure out into the open: ignore forested areas, use your mobility to go around them.
Anyone wanna try this same exercise to figure out how to deal with mass spearmen?

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Post by Xandria » April 18th, 2007, 7:32 am

Hm. You might want to press against spearmen at night, actually, because then, you're rarely at a risk of losing a drake, but can manage to kill a guy with a pointy stick with the aid of a sole augur, or a few decent burner hits.
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