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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Because In all the time I've seen this over the course of 3 or so games the new player has never won.

The part of the reply with the examples was just what ussualy happens after a player gets showen down. The last responce I've olny ever seen once with someone I introduced to the game who was convinced that northerners would always beat rebles.

The thread is not designed to prove gameplay balance. There is no realy good way to do that in a short time, and I don't think that this thread would have been made if that was the objective.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Kristjan

Post by Kristjan »

Noy wrote:Kristijan are you even reading my responses?
yes I did
Noy wrote:let me make this simple for you, because apparently after three separate posts of saying the same thing, you can't comprehend what I'm saying.

This thread has nothing to do with the balancing process.
and yet players with opinions about the game balance are invited here; for the reference the forum topic itself:
"You think a faction is overpowered? Come here!"
what is this thread about then? Does not the faction power concern the balance of the gameplay?
Noy wrote:Balancing decisions come out of games between expert players.


Your perfect world where people of experience are listened to over people who aren't is a fantasy, this forum is littered with countless threads of people saying X faction is over/underpowered, and a whole host of other people saying "yeah I agree" even though they have the same skill level. And when you argue with them, their answers sound plausable but anyone with serious skill know they are wrong. The best way is to show them how they are wrong, hence this thread. Should we just let them play poorly and not care? Maybe, but its annoying to see the forum clutterred up like this, and I'd like to have more good opponents to play against.
what they claim can't be disproved by playing against them.
Noy wrote:However it seems as if you don't understand any of this; you're act with the same arrogance and ignorance people find annoying in new players, instead you're doing so about this topic.
it seems the topic is a trap for arrogant, ignorant newbies! Further it arguably carries hidden agenda "to get rid of all the x faction is unbalanced against y threads that pop up every month" and "provide good opponents to play against."
Just make a thread about balance issues in multiplayer and move all those "annoying" threads to there - convinient and simple to understand
Kristjan wrote:how would you react if one day finding yourself suddenly enjoying long distance running were offered a chance to compete against experienced long distance runner to prove that you are wrong about knalgans athletic shoes having advantage over loyalists athletic shoes?

Kristjan

Post by Kristjan »

Velensk wrote:Because In all the time I've seen this over the course of 3 or so games the new player has never won.

The part of the reply with the examples was just what ussualy happens after a player gets showen down. The last responce I've olny ever seen once with someone I introduced to the game who was convinced that northerners would always beat rebles.
claiming to win always or thinking there is an overpowered faction are different issues
Velensk wrote:The thread is not designed to prove gameplay balance. There is no realy good way to do that in a short time, and I don't think that this thread would have been made if that was the objective.
hence the sticky thread title is misleading

Noy
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Post by Noy »

Kristjan wrote:
Noy wrote:However it seems as if you don't understand any of this; you're act with the same arrogance and ignorance people find annoying in new players, instead you're doing so about this topic.
it seems the topic is a trap for arrogant, ignorant newbies! Further it arguably carries hidden agenda "to get rid of all the x faction is unbalanced against y threads that pop up every month" and "provide good opponents to play against."
Just make a thread about balance issues in multiplayer and move all those "annoying" threads to there - convinient and simple to understand
And what does that do? its like moving a red light district to another part of the city, it does nothing to deal with the problem. You haven't read what I said, arguing with people doesn't do anything. You've been here for how long? A couple of months? I've had to deal with this for over three years. Showing people how the game is balanced is a lot less time consuming and enjoyable for some than going into semantic arguments over this. All you're saying here is "poor new player, he's being fooled into this." I don't see that at all. I see often a disturbing amount of arrogance, combined with a lack of skill, and a waste of experience player's time. Here in 10 minutes I compiled this very quick list of unbalanced faction threads (errors might be in there, I didn't read into it too deeply). Do you really think I should have to respond to each one? Do you think people will listen? Its alot easier and effective to show players how to play in 1st person rather than the forum.


http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16012
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15893
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15715
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16169
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17015
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16182
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16321
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16517
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16243
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16300
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15717
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15785
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15510
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13663
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14968
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14364
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14449
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12588
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12553
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15338
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15135
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15096
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14430
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14263
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13611
Last edited by Noy on August 18th, 2007, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

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jb
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Post by jb »

Noy
its like moving a red light district to another part of the city, it does nothing to deal with the problem.
The red light district is a problem? Can we move it to my part of the city?
:P


I think the idea of having a single balance thread about faction complaints is much better than dozens of mini threads...as Noy has shown it is a bit ridiculous to have so many threads. It's not a trap, or bait, or anything evil. It's a single thread to improve efficeincy.

Though it could argued the somewhat comical title of the thread could be changed.
Last edited by jb on August 18th, 2007, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Noy
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Post by Noy »

Kristjan wrote:what they claim can't be disproved by playing against them.


FOR F*** sake, no. but the thousands of games we HAVE played between experienced players HAS. Maybe its that you're not reading this correctly, just that you're being intentionally obtuse for a reason.

As I pointed out, this thread made no claims about balance itself, or promised balancing as a result.

Do you think this game is unbalanced? Yes? Play me and prove it.

Does this say this game is balanced? no. If I told a player that the game is balanced, would he believe me? Maybe, but thats alot of ink spilled for what purpose? Would he learn how to play? not likely. Its alot easier for people to show each other how to do it. So it uses a person's own arrogance to elicit a response. Thats not really a bad thing.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

Noy
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Post by Noy »

jb wrote:Noy
its like moving a red light district to another part of the city, it does nothing to deal with the problem.
The red light district is a problem? Can we move it to my part of the city?
:P
You live in Chicago, doesn't that refer to most of the city?
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Post by Whiro »

:lol:
Last edited by Whiro on August 26th, 2007, 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

waw
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Post by waw »

Just to throw in and get involved:

the name implies that this allows you to say i think this faction is imbalanced because of this or that.

I found in a match that the rebels womped the other players. So I went in yet another match, thinking that with rebels I did have the upper hand... got womped! I learned to value day and night and try the elves again in another match... got womped! Learned to use terrain!

Losing was an experience and I'm a newb. Some people can't be helped and will just continue to argue... In a multi-player match 2v2... I learned a lot from everybody playing. Doing is learning and I learned that the default factions are fairly well balanced.

I think what you guys are arguing over is slightly rediculous and doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. Well it does, but it is far enough off topic to call you out on it.

How do you prove one is unbalanced? You don't! The fact is, by playing against each other, each person has a different quality of play and will beat somebody somewhere with some faction. It could be by a small mistake of placing a wose here instead of there or whatever it may be. You can't really prove it but you can argue your point until somebody changes something and you try it. Only by stating the FACTS can you ACTUALLY determine if one is unbalanced or not.

Take the rebels vs. northerners. The Orcs have obv. help at night, but a great loss in the day. The Rebels are neutral so they can do fairly good in both night and day. Is that unbalanced? Potentially, but then look into it further at stats and what does who and when. You find they ARE balanced fairly well.

Now as I've said, I'm a newb, just by a few weeks that I have pretty much ignored my wife and played this the whole time :wink: But that doesn't change the fact that I've noticed this. You guys aren't really even arguing about the topic at hand... so why don't you move to a new thread... or why not try this:

PICK A FACTION and debate over that... see who wins?
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Noy
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Post by Noy »

waw: you might want to re-read some of my posts, before dismissing what I say out of hand.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

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Faello
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Post by Faello »

waw wrote: Take the rebels vs. northerners. The Orcs have obv. help at night, but a great loss in the day. The Rebels are neutral so they can do fairly good in both night and day. Is that unbalanced? Potentially, but then look into it further at stats and what does who and when. You find they ARE balanced fairly well.
Actually, Rebels are slightly better in the matchup against orcs - I'm playing this game for a long time and I find rebels less luck-oriented ( which is good for players that want to have their unit effectiveness closer to the estimated one ) because of their high number of attacks ( 4 attacks of fighter/archer in comparision to standard 2 - 3 orcish attacks ) and every elven unit has ability to inflict ranged dmg against heavily melee oriented orcs. I think that small hp advantage doesn't compensate elven fighting power, not to mention the fact that elvish troops have generally higher defense than orc ones.

Also maps with large amonts of forest, mountains and hills are more favourable for elves - orcish special unit - assasin - also isn't as much useful in this mathup as against other races ( same goes for archer if elven player isn't using woses ) - on the other hand, elves can effectively stand against orcs dring night time, using their bows, hiding on 60 - 70% terrain and slowing down enemies.

In the day light, orcish army should disengage because they loose their only advantage - high melee dmg - while elves can finally use their fighters properly, not to mention using lawful units such as mages or treants - I've recently played 2vs2 when I had to face rebel player with my orcish army - I had some misfortune and my enemy got +30dmg while I got -30, not to mention that during night time and with better positions my attack failed, and in the end of the game I've inflicted only 350 dmg in comparision to elven 700 (majority of it by arrows and magic)
and I'm quite experienced player.
Last edited by Faello on August 22nd, 2007, 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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waw
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Post by waw »

I wasn't stating it to actually call YOU out or anybody else, but I was trying to read this thread about how one side may be overpowered overall, giving it an unfair advantage since I am new and this is what I read...

Basically I was trying to say that these last couple of pages don't actually discuss any factions at all rather... just that experienced players CAN beat inexperienced players. Again, not calling out Noy, I understand your posts. I was simply stating that an argument like this should be let go and replaced with a more productive one such as what Faello wrote.

Speaking of which...

I find though that Orcs can overpower the rebels with just that: Power. Getting in close, if you have your men lined up properly, you can cut a large group down fairly quickly. So I think the balance factor is there.
I played with the drakes for only a few turns and had to go...

I think they are extremely strong/fast/melee/range but I am not sure of their flaws... I am assuming its in defense.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to add fuel to the fire, I was trying to change the subject to what this thread SHOULD be about rather than what it was being about. I apologize if you took it that way.

EDIT:

Now as Herduk posted in his first post at the beginning of this thread... since it is to organize a match or view a replay...

It looks like one may be lining up about Orcs and Elves. Granted, I am far from the best player but I believe the Orcs could do their fair share. Herduk said to have a match and see if we can prove our point.

You can't prove one side is underbalanced in a match, but if you beat a faction that is properly balanced then perhaps with tactics you can add into the fact that a faction IS balanced, it just comes down to a player.

Such as what I said about Orcs, get close, rip them up. Use Wolf Riders and go for their leader after entangling the enemy, such and such like that. Make sense?

Basically, arguing won't prove your point, but you can argue about a faction and say what makes them balanced. It isn't always just stats. Many times it will take an actual show of strategy.

Being Wesnoth that is what it comes down to... it isn't WOW in which your stats matter... its Wesnoth... its where Strategy matters.
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Post by Murloc »

this has to be the worst thread ever. Im not reffering to valensk, noy etc. This cant possebly be that hard to understand. If a player who has played the game for lets say.. 3 months says Undead are to good. Then say.. um mythological says he will give him a chance to prove it.

And if the player with less experience wins every time against a much bether player then somthing is wrong. Also if i can play ten matches with elves against any player no mather how many times and win every time doing the exact same thing, somthing is wrong.

Kristjan

Post by Kristjan »

Murloc wrote:Also if i can play ten matches with elves against any player no mather how many times and win every time doing the exact same thing, somthing is wrong.
what exactly is this sentence supposed to be? (could you edit it please); nevertheless I get your point:
Murloc wrote:this has to be the worst thread ever. Im not reffering to valensk, noy etc. This cant possebly be that hard to understand. If a player who has played the game for lets say.. 3 months says Undead are to good. Then say.. um mythological says he will give him a chance to prove it.

And if the player with less experience wins every time against a much bether player then somthing is wrong. Also if i can play ten matches with elves against any player no mather how many times and win every time doing the exact same thing, somthing is wrong.
agree (except with "the worst thread ever"), but don't leave out the second possible outcome:
what conclusion(s) can you draw then player who made the claim that faction x is overpowered will loose with the same faction x to arguably more skilled player?
Besides then you can win everybody with one certain faction it won't ultimately prove that the faction is overpowered yet, although it's most likely will be so, others have to repeat your success at first.

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