Drakes against thunderers?

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Noy wrote: I'd have to look at it again but my initial answer is yes. Drakes are not about actually using terrain to give itself and advantage, but denying other factions the use of terrain that is advantageous to them. You want to get units on terrain that gives you an 10% difference or less, so 30 vs 40% defence. A thunderer and a drake fighter fighting it out on open terrain is usually a dead thunderer. Put the drake fighter on a hill and the thunderer on grasslands or forest, you're denying him 60%.

You could have also conducted a slow withdrawal on the left, and moved units over there... that might have worked, or gone back to recruit yourself. Instead committing everything on the right to kill the gunner on the hill, sucking up over 50% of your combat power, for no gain at all.
Thrawn wrote: :Don't think of terrain as something to help you: think of it as something to disadvantage your enemies.
--Although grabbing mountains doesn't really help you, it does prevent the dwarves from using them. And saurians DO get an advantage on them.
that was something I realized after my game...posted it before you :P

really though: I didn't want to withdraw, because it would be giving him more villages. I should have probably attacked his other units still traveling, but at the time I forgot he needed units on both fronts...
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

One suggestion I would put out (though for a diffrent reason than thunderers) is that clasher resistances to peirce be increased to 10%. The thing that inspired this is the flow of almost every drake vs loyalst game I've seen, it would also help the thunder problem (if it is a problem).

In most drake vs Loyalst game the drake player finds himself in a bind because all his drakes can be countered at any time of day by cheap spearman and archers. This leaves him saurians which have trouble agains mages. I think that it would realy help if the drakes had a unit that could acculay hold a defence for a turn at day. I think that it is most fitting to give this to clashers because they don't have a speed bonus.
Ultimatum479
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Post by Ultimatum479 »

Looking again through the replay from your point of view, Thrawn, I think another advantage of Drake mobility you could've use would have been to keep a Sky Drake near the center, perhaps fighting for that center village but mainly allowing you to see everything. Fog seemed to cloud a couple of your decisions (pun very much unintended, but I'm too lazy to delete it now that I noticed).
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Omega Red
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Post by Omega Red »

lol, amazing how a thread about strategy can disintegrate into a a contest of ego's. one of the most uninformative threads, those putting down less experiences players offer no constructive comments.

unless of course they have none to add
eyu100
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Post by eyu100 »

Velensk wrote:One suggestion I would put out (though for a diffrent reason than thunderers) is that clasher resistances to peirce be increased to 10%. The thing that inspired this is the flow of almost every drake vs loyalst game I've seen, it would also help the thunder problem (if it is a problem).

In most drake vs Loyalst game the drake player finds himself in a bind because all his drakes can be countered at any time of day by cheap spearman and archers. This leaves him saurians which have trouble agains mages. I think that it would realy help if the drakes had a unit that could acculay hold a defence for a turn at day. I think that it is most fitting to give this to clashers because they don't have a speed bonus.
Spearmen can be countered by mass burners.
Tmoiy
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Post by Tmoiy »

eyu100 wrote:Spearmen can be countered by mass burners.
Spearmen and burners do about equal damage to each other at any time of day. However, burners cost 21 gold. Spearmen cost 14. For every two burners you buy, your opponent can get three spearmen. Also, the spearmen have better defense practically everywhere.

Yeah, you're not going to win that one.
Noy
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Post by Noy »

Omega Red wrote:lol, amazing how a thread about strategy can disintegrate into a a contest of ego's. one of the most uninformative threads, those putting down less experiences players offer no constructive comments.

unless of course they have none to add
Right. You know I'm all for helping new players. If someone comes and asks "hey noy, I'm having problems with the Knalgans as Drakes can you help me?" I don't think any one of us would have a problem helping them.

And we generally don't take too much offense to comments like "this game is unbalanced drakes suck compared to Knalgans, make them stronger." I think there is a tolerance most of us have built up for such comments. However, what really grinds us down, and rubs our patience thin is when and you get the inevitable response "why do you think you know better?" or blatant disregard for what should be expert advice. Quite often the offending poster will give some contorted argument on strategy that only bears a passing resemblence to how to play. Its highly aggravating.

Respect cuts both ways, many of us have been understanding and honest to the best of our abilities with new players, however we don't feel any sort of reciprocation in these matters. Immediately, the people who have worked so hard on this game, played it thousands of times, are discredited on how to play. I don't think thats fair at all. You might not like to hear it, or believe it, but this game is for the most part balanced, Thunderers are not overpowered compared to drakes. If you have proof, bring it, we will discuss it with you as honestly as we can.

This isn't an contest of egos, its one of basic respect, one that is not being reciprocated properly.
Shade
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The Drakes

Post by Shade »

The Drakes probably have the largest learning curve to learn how to play. Before the 'professional balancers' came on the scene I was involved in banging the Drakes into their current form. (Trust me, you should treat the unit balancers with a lot of respects-- it is the most contentious job in the game. It's not that they're arrogant, it's just a very hard job, and it often leads to 'hard debate' between developers. They take the brunt of a lot of abuse.)

The earliest Drakes were a bit of a mess. There was a community split on whether or not they should go in. Eventually word came down that they should go in-- The problem was that since they weren't in a mainline campaign in a major way, and the developers were split, they didn't get a lot of love.

They were the big wimpy things that crudely aped human roles. That would lose with a 2 to 1 advantage. The 'modern' Drakes emerged out of this thread:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

The 'Drake Feel' was hammered out there. They are arguably the most exotic faction in the game... People from the era when the Drakes were introduced still have hard feelings on the subject. Ask Turin :p [There were many reasons why they could have stayed out, but if they were 'in' I thought they should work and have their own feel. So it was Neorice's art and 'vision', my 'How do we make them work?', Dave's making them lawful, and more debate than you've ever seen :) ]

edit: Uggh, didn't proof read.
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