Rebels vs. Rebels

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Kyler Thatch
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Rebels vs. Rebels

Post by Kyler Thatch »

Or, what to do when both you and your opponent are playing defensively.

I think the general strategy when playing rebels vs. rebels is to keep your units (the elves, specifically) in the forest when you can, try to lure the enemy into the open, and get a mage or two to take care of the ones that are still hiding in good terrain.

But considering I got creamed in MP, maybe I should just let the more experienced players do the discussing. I tried looking up JW's faction guides, but there's nothing specifically on rebels vs. rebels.

For discussion purposes, I'll upload a replay. To start off, what did my opponent do right, and what did I do wrong?
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[replay] Trenches.zip
Wesnoth version 1.2
(16.66 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

If they both play defensively, I'd do as you said - Wait for him... Else you might as well get owned(i think) if he's defending well (good terrain & units choices, etc)


Now, I'm not experienced, I mean like, at all, but I'd like to try to help you further with your replay...... If I manage to read it! How am I meant to open it? Says there is no defined software for the opening of this file and bleh; any idea?
Blarumyrran
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Post by Blarumyrran »

konrad, are you saying you havent got a single program to open zip?
then download some. eg 7-zip.



but about the match...

1) in rebel vs rebel mermen arent very good, because only elvish scouts are vulnerable to pierce and noone ever buys many scouts on blitz anyway. woses have 60% res to pierce, and are thus a murder against mermen. warriors can retaliate to your ranged also. but youll need them for getting/defending the water villages, so in the start of the game, make 1 and dont make more. if enemy makes 2 mermen and comes for your merman with them, you can sit in your water village and your 1 mermen is as good as his 2, so youll lead financially.

make only 1 merman.

2) exactly the same thing that goes for mermen goes for archers. if you look warrior and archer stats, their attacks are about equal(warrior is as much better in melee as archer is better at ranged), the only thing archer has better is this 70% defence in woods vs warrior's 60%. but warrior has got way more hp so warrior is still better(you cant stay in the forests forever with your archer, and outside its deadmeat). so, no archers, there isnt a single good unit to use them against when in rebel vs rebel.

make no archers.

3) elvish fighter, as explained, is very good for its price, being very versatile(ranged attack, no weaknesses, good defence on all good terrains, in contrast to elvish archer's necessity to stay in forest in order not to get killed because of its poor hp). get lots of it. also, its blade damage hacks woses good. buying 0 warriors on turn 1 is always a bad idea.

make LOTS of warriors.

4) 2 scouts? in combat theyre awful and they cost a lot. personally, i dont make any elf scouts ever on blitz. maybe some people here do. but my advice is,

make no scouts.
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Post by Flametrooper »

Elvish scouts can present a threat to enemy cavalry in gangs of two or three, especially taking into account their mobility and defense. A lone Scout is near useless against anything, but even just a pair, always traveling together and staying on good terrain, can get villages and pose, while not a significant threat, enough bother, especially to enemy cavalry, that the enemy may divert troops to take them - troops that now aren't countering your other offenses. And supposing he doesn't, then start using them for village theivery, at which they're good.

In short: Make 2-3 scouts if your enemy either gets cavalry or is drakes. Keep them together and in good terrain.
Imp
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Post by Imp »

Following Syntax Error's strategy, Rebels vs Rebels on blitz is one huge fighter-fest. :-D
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

Syntax_Error wrote:konrad, are you saying you havent got a single program to open zip?
then download some. eg 7-zip.
I do have a program to open zip, just was looking for some kind of "play replay" command in Wesnoth :P I guess I was too illogical to try loading a game -.-
Blarumyrran
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Post by Blarumyrran »

Imp wrote:Following Syntax Error's strategy, Rebels vs Rebels on blitz is one huge fighter-fest. :-D
well, it is. a few shamans and mages and woses to the bunch (+ the rudimentary merman), but about half the units should imho be warriors.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Syntax_Error wrote:
Imp wrote:Following Syntax Error's strategy, Rebels vs Rebels on blitz is one huge fighter-fest. :-D
well, it is. a few shamans and mages and woses to the bunch (+ the rudimentary merman), but about half the units should imho be warriors.
um...no?

If someone has no archers, I would recruit a couple archers. Nothing is super weak to them, but when fighting in the woods, they are less likely to get hit, and just as archers can't retaliate well against fighters, fighters can't retaliate well against archers until the next turn either. Archers are also more mobile, and have good leveled units, and ambsh is your friend in elf v elf matches, as the enemy is bound to use forests as much as possible. Of course, woses have ambush, but...

Remember woses are expensive, and mages can deal with them well...so can fighters, due to blade damage and the low CTBH in forests, although that is much more risky.

re:cavalry--although not very useful, they serve their purpose. They are fast, and so they can ZoC weaker enemies to kill, or even ZoC a stronger enemy and weaken him for another unit to kill. Using them to do this either wins you a unit advantage over your enemy (if they ignore the threat), or lets you fight a disorganized enemy position (if they respond to kill the horsemen and save their unit)
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
Blarumyrran
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Post by Blarumyrran »

Thrawn wrote: um...no?
yes?
If someone has no archers, I would recruit a couple archers. Nothing is super weak to them, but when fighting in the woods, they are less likely to get hit, and just as archers can't retaliate well against fighters, fighters can't retaliate well against archers until the next turn either. Archers are also more mobile, and have good leveled units, and ambsh is your friend in elf v elf matches, as the enemy is bound to use forests as much as possible. Of course, woses have ambush, but...
woses receive averagely 6-7 damage from an elf archer. wose has regenerate 8 hp, which means next turn the effect of one elf archer attack will be nullified. but wose deals full damage to archers and has way more hp. woses really own archers. (some people never learn that and think "oh wow, wose cant ranged retaliate, ill pwn it with all archers!", but the damage, although safe, is far too small and replenishes. wose damage to archer is large and replenishes only when the archer is in village, but there his/her chance-to-be-hit is 33% higher, 30% -> 40%.) the archer cost (17) is worth it against all other factions except undead and rebels.
Remember woses are expensive, and mages can deal with them well...so can fighters, due to blade damage and the low CTBH in forests, although that is much more risky.
as long as you zoc your wose with warriors against enemy mage, it shouldnt be much of a problem. besides, when a wose can only be attacked from open ground(low def %), the mage will quite likely be also dead next turn, so theres no catastrophe.
re:cavalry--although not very useful, they serve their purpose. They are fast, and so they can ZoC weaker enemies to kill, or even ZoC a stronger enemy and weaken him for another unit to kill. Using them to do this either wins you a unit advantage over your enemy (if they ignore the threat), or lets you fight a disorganized enemy position (if they respond to kill the horsemen and save their unit)
with cavalry you mean elvish scouts, right(as this is rebel vs rebel thread)? zocing the enemy with scout is usually not very good, as getting behind enemy lines means an immediate lose of 18 gold, which is a lot, and on blitz, the 2 sides of map are often zoc-spammed anyway, so the only way to get behind enemy would usually be through water, which is a slow and vulnerable way. tho scouts are great for teasing noobs on some other maps(eg on 4p Clash, noobs always send all their army to one point of battlefield and your scout can take half his villages. its fun. but doesnt really work on blitz).
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

Syntax_Error wrote:
If someone has no archers, I would recruit a couple archers. Nothing is super weak to them, but when fighting in the woods, they are less likely to get hit, and just as archers can't retaliate well against fighters, fighters can't retaliate well against archers until the next turn either. Archers are also more mobile, and have good leveled units, and ambsh is your friend in elf v elf matches, as the enemy is bound to use forests as much as possible. Of course, woses have ambush, but...
woses receive averagely 6-7 damage from an elf archer. wose has regenerate 8 hp, which means next turn the effect of one elf archer attack will be nullified. but wose deals full damage to archers and has way more hp. woses really own archers. (some people never learn that and think "oh wow, wose cant ranged retaliate, ill pwn it with all archers!", but the damage, although safe, is far too small and replenishes. wose damage to archer is large and replenishes only when the archer is in village, but there his/her chance-to-be-hit is 33% higher, 30% -> 40%.) the archer cost (17) is worth it against all other factions except undead and rebels.
I think he meant that archers can be good if the opponent only makes warriors for the half of his army and no archers, because warriors have a hard time dealing with them in woods(30% hit), while they can fight back with 40%, 50, or more without any damage taken besides like, 2 damage. So for a ripost, if you'd have to choose between warriors and archers against a warrior you'd go for archer for this reason.
Of course I think it sucks for offensive, because of the more likely 50 or 40% defense, low HP etc, but it may be good in the army to ripost against warriors, or mages that want to take down units in woods...

Overall, I'd say you're pretty much right, Syntax, on the warrior vs archer = warrior on an elves vs elves, but I thought I'd try to develop Thrawn's thought, unless he(I hope not ><, else this post is pretty useless) meant something else.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Syntax_Error wrote:
If someone has no archers, I would recruit a couple archers. Nothing is super weak to them, but when fighting in the woods, they are less likely to get hit, and just as archers can't retaliate well against fighters, fighters can't retaliate well against archers until the next turn either. Archers are also more mobile, and have good leveled units, and ambsh is your friend in elf v elf matches, as the enemy is bound to use forests as much as possible. Of course, woses have ambush, but...
woses receive averagely 6-7 damage from an elf archer. wose has regenerate 8 hp, which means next turn the effect of one elf archer attack will be nullified. but wose deals full damage to archers and has way more hp. woses really own archers. (some people never learn that and think "oh wow, wose cant ranged retaliate, ill pwn it with all archers!", but the damage, although safe, is far too small and replenishes. wose damage to archer is large and replenishes only when the archer is in village, but there his/her chance-to-be-hit is 33% higher, 30% -> 40%.) the archer cost (17) is worth it against all other factions except undead and rebels.
dude, I'm not a noob. Did I suggest attacking woses with archers...no, I described attacking fighters with archers. Automatically eliminating one option is foolish, especially when the option is as useful as the archer. I'm not saying buy all archers, or even a lot of archers. I said that if the enemy doesn't get any, getting some will give you an advantage if you play right...
Remember woses are expensive, and mages can deal with them well...so can fighters, due to blade damage and the low CTBH in forests, although that is much more risky.
as long as you zoc your wose with warriors against enemy mage, it shouldnt be much of a problem. besides, when a wose can only be attacked from open ground(low def %), the mage will quite likely be also dead next turn, so theres no catastrophe.
I'm not sure if you play go, if so my analogy may be clearer. So...
you have your wose. I have my mage. You have protected your wose with the 2 fighter needed to protect it. that is 48gold right there. that is 48 gold and 3 units that have to stay together, and move slowly due to wose's4 moves. Your group is over concentrated, and I can simply attack elsewhere, which is now a weaker position. This isnt always going to work, but....
re:cavalry--although not very useful, they serve their purpose. They are fast, and so they can ZoC weaker enemies to kill, or even ZoC a stronger enemy and weaken him for another unit to kill. Using them to do this either wins you a unit advantage over your enemy (if they ignore the threat), or lets you fight a disorganized enemy position (if they respond to kill the horsemen and save their unit)
with cavalry you mean elvish scouts, right(as this is rebel vs rebel thread)? zocing the enemy with scout is usually not very good, as getting behind enemy lines means an immediate lose of 18 gold, which is a lot, and on blitz, the 2 sides of map are often zoc-spammed anyway, so the only way to get behind enemy would usually be through water, which is a slow and vulnerable way. tho scouts are great for teasing noobs on some other maps(eg on 4p Clash, noobs always send all their army to one point of battlefield and your scout can take half his villages. its fun. but doesn't really work on blitz).
not everyone plays on blitz, and yes, ZoCing units with scouts is useful, because they have the most likelihood of reaching. And no, it isn't an instant loss of 18, its a risk of losing 18, but could also lead to greater benefit.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
Tony Almeida
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Post by Tony Almeida »

Will you guys just set a time and play each other already?
"So, uh, what are we saying here? If we save LA from a nuclear bomb, then you and I can get together for dinner and a movie?"
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Tony Almeida wrote:Will you guys just set a time and play each other already?
I'd lose, probably. as I have great trouble attacking at the right time, and planning my actions...but if S_E wants to set a time, I'm ready :)
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
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Post by Blarumyrran »

then again, i have been on wesnoth only for about 4 months(kinda obvious from my post count), and i still lose a lot of matches(cowardly as i am, i usually play under different names, so i can try out innovative tactics without marking my name as a synonym for noob when i fail, and that happens a lot. but if i didnt do it, why would i play a game where i always use the same moves?).

id like to try a match too, tho.

every day 16-20 GMT is fine for me. say what edge would fit better for you.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

alright, there are some wrong things that need to be changed here...

Elvish fighters are useful. However, if you make to many, they can be easily countered by elvish archers/ mages, so, make 2-3 of them, and try to keep this number relative to the number of other units you have, and the type of units your opponent has.

Elvish archers are ALSO useful. They can survive better in forest, and still give 5 damage per hit in melee, and you are almost bound to hit the opponent once while he is attacking you from forest. These counter swarms of elvish fighters, so recruit these according to the number of elvish fighters the opponent has. I recommend 1-2.

Elvish shamans are VERY useful. Here's the general strategy for them; either use them to "impare" a unit so it's not as useful, or slow a unit, (woses + elvish fighters are prefered targets) then use elvish fighters to attack that unit. Avoid letting these guys get vunerable, they get massacred by elvish fighters on bad terrain. I suggest one for every 2 fighters you have.

Elvish scouts... recruit one for line of sight, so you arent suprised by enemy attacks. also useful for "coming out of nowhere" and killing weak expensive units, such as a low hp wose or mage. If used properly, by using ZOC, you can surround and kill countless units, with backup from other units. Also useful for annoying the enemy via village "stealing." As I said before, recruit 1.

Merman hunters? Just make one. No real need for much water forces here.

Woses are alright, just don't over recruit them. Only one time have I ever seen a force of mostly woses win, and it was spectacular. One man, thinking he had his opponent pinned down, went to finish him, to kill his leader. Then a group of woses ambushed the enitre party, surprising them on bad terrain, killed them, and advanced all the way to the opponent's castle, to the to the astonishment of the opponent, and killed the leader. Other than that, you should only recruit one. These units are weak to elvish fighters, and 3 can kill this unit or heavily damage it, and it won't be able to retreat. Also gets absoutely butchered by mages, so only 1, if that. Counters elvish archers and merman well, that's it's only use.

Mages are primarily used for countering rebel's high defense. Keep this unit guarded at all times. Recruit 1. Also useful for killing woses. Recruit one, no more, no less. Don't let him be killed.

I have played rebels vs rebels 8-9 times, and this is the general strategy i used. I won 3/4's of the time. I think my record was 6-2 or 6-3 or 7-2...
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