Dwarfish Thunderer debate

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Glowing Fish
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Post by Glowing Fish »

I agree the Thunderer shouldn't be changed.

One thing I feel about Wesnoth over the past two years is that units have been smoothed out slightly, becoming more like each other. I like the uniqueness of the Thunderer.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

I agree the Thunderer shouldn't be changed.

One thing I feel about Wesnoth over the past two years is that units have been smoothed out slightly, becoming more like each other. I like the uniqueness of the Thunderer.
I agree. the thunderer's "luck" shot is what makes it so original. by moding it, you could unbalance knalgans as a whole.
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Krispos
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Post by Krispos »

You know.... the Thunderer is honestly one of my favorite units. It can't very well tank, but it's got a gun, a really big gun. It's one of those units that makes you think and sometimes, your death is by the luck shot. I've seen to many people, to often throw an army of Thunderers at me and wonder why I win... I know I'm new... but come on... you can't base an offensive off of luck shots and hack happy dwarves ;).
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Oreb
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Post by Oreb »

Before someone goes on about it, it is not a gun, but a Thunderstick.
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Post by Krispos »

Oh, sorry... Thunderstick... fear the stick of Dwarvish Thunder. *nods satisfacterly*
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Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Hm... Why do so many people complain about the thunderer? At higher levels, it can kill many units with only one hit. And a, for example, 60% chance to kill a unit, isn't that something? I don't know many other units which have a 60% chance to kill another unit on grass. And they are deadly against orcish slayers... (Managed to kill an orcish slayer on castle with one hit, lvl 2 thunderer :wink: )
IB
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Post by IB »

Clonkinator wrote:I don't know many other units which have a 60% chance to kill another unit on grass.
Ulf?
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

IB wrote:
Clonkinator wrote:I don't know many other units which have a 60% chance to kill another unit on grass.
Ulf?

not exactly. the ulf's chance to kill is based on more than defense. it is mostly based on hp, damage, and THEN defense.
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podunk
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Post by podunk »

Except against horsies absolutely useless units. In theory 60% chance to hit turns into 40% CTH in reality against troll or whelps. (I kept track 3 campaigns)

Except for ghosts against undead in A Choice Must Be Made and Swamp of Dread they're completely useless. Of course by this time I have lots of units that are good for undead clean up - so why bother?

Royal Guards? Iron Maulers? Pikemen? Ha! Might as well have them fall on their daggers and get it over with.

They are fragile, you have to feed them easy kills and be ready to cover them up just like your magic users.

They are very good against horsemen. A few assassins and a few Dragon Guards moving up and down the line in the last scene are a joy to behold. :twisted:
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Post by F8 Binds... »

podunk wrote:Except against horsies absolutely useless units. In theory 60% chance to hit turns into 40% CTH in reality against troll or whelps. (I kept track 3 campaigns)

Except for ghosts against undead in A Choice Must Be Made and Swamp of Dread they're completely useless. Of course by this time I have lots of units that are good for undead clean up - so why bother?

Royal Guards? Iron Maulers? Pikemen? Ha! Might as well have them fall on their daggers and get it over with.

They are fragile, you have to feed them easy kills and be ready to cover them up just like your magic users.

They are very good against horsemen. A few assassins and a few Dragon Guards moving up and down the line in the last scene are a joy to behold. :twisted:
thunderers are very useful against nearly EVERY race in wesnoth.. with one skrike you nearly kill a unit. 2 hits and almost any lvl 1 unit DIES. 34 hp is not fragile. EF's have less hp than that. any unit that comes to attack you either gambles getting hit if they are using ranged or are gambling getting hit on your next turn: when on good terrain the unit will survive, even when isolated (i am NOT encouraging isolating units) yes, they are most prominent against calvary, but don't forget drakes! with only 40% max def, that makes and 60% CTH. if the unit has half health, that's a 60% CTK! any experienced player will avoid attacking you from 40% (or lower) terrain if these guys are near. you don't even need to give them kills on purpose- you'll get them anyways. :) the unit of choice when facing melee based units.

note: iron maulers, royal guards, and pikemen aren't lvl 1 :)
if i get the lvl 3 (dragonguard) to fight these 1on1, look:

iron mauler= does 20-2 facing 5-3, but taking 24-1 shots from the dragonguard :)

royal guard= does 10-4 facing 7-3, but taking 40-1 shots from the dragonguard :)

halberdier= does 12-3 and 15-2 facing 9-3, but taking 24-1 shots from the dragonguard :)
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Kyler Thatch
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Post by Kyler Thatch »

podunk wrote:Except against horsies absolutely useless units. [snipped for brevity]
I disagree. Of course, against cavalry and drakes the thunderer can be devastating, but against other units it also has it's uses. As for being fragile, you'd probably want to park him in a mountain hex most of the time anyway, being a dwarf and all.

In MP, the thunderer could have a psychological effect, making your opponent think twice about attacking (at least with ranged attacks). As for tough melee units like the heavy infantry, you should probably have prepared other counter units anyway.

When you're on the attack (or counterattack), the thunderer also seems to be good for taking shots at units caught out of good terrain. Like if an elvish fighter decides to step out of the forest and into the grass, for example.
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Post by podunk »

I keep reading 60% chance to hit - and it's not - except for horsies that is. :-) Granted the chance to hit approaches 60% *if* you catch a unit on bad ground. Many maps there is no bad ground. Trolls or undead in a cave, elusive foots almost anywhere.

The actual hit percentage over 3 campaigns(HttT) is slightly over 40, it ran up to 44 the last time I kept up. Against a troll in a cave or on mountains you'll deal more damage with 3 dagger attacks than you will with 3 thunderstick attacks. Not good for longevity of your dwarf of course!

In order to advance them I keep them in pairs. When I get a baddie into the red I have them attack with daggers so that one of them will for sure get the kill.

Wonderful against mounted troops though! Very satisfying.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

I disagree. your viewpoint is campaign-based.
podunk wrote:I keep reading 60% chance to hit - and it's not - except for horsies that is. :-) Granted the chance to hit approaches 60% *if* you catch a unit on bad ground. Many maps there is no bad ground. Trolls or undead in a cave, elusive foots almost anywhere.
Unless you are playing in the Himilayas, Rocky Mountains, or Andes, there is bad ground. (And you would want thunderers anyways due to their 70% defense in mountains.) Here are some statistics on the chances of missing 1, 2, and 3 times in different defenses.

20% terrain- miss 1- 20% miss 2- 4% miss 3- 0.8%
30% terrain- miss 1- 30% miss 2- 9% miss 3- 2.7%
40% terrain- miss 1- 40% miss 2- 16% miss 3- 6.4%
50% terrain- miss 1- 50% miss 2- 25% miss 3- 12.5%
60% terrain- miss 1- 60% miss 2- 36% miss 3- 21.6%
70% terrain- miss 1- 70% miss 2- 49% miss 3- 34.3%

averages- miss 1- 45% miss 2- 23.1666...% miss 3- 13.05%
conclusion- Average maps have mostly 40%/50% terrain- hit% should be around 55% on average maps. not many maps (except in campaigns, where some scenarios have unbalanced terrain) have a lot of mountains, or a lot of forest, (applies to elves only) so thunderers are quite useful.
podunk wrote:The actual hit percentage over 3 campaigns(HttT) is slightly over 40, it ran up to 44 the last time I kept up. Against a troll in a cave or on mountains you'll deal more damage with 3 dagger attacks than you will with 3 thunderstick attacks. Not good for longevity of your dwarf of course!
alright, let's see if really 3 dagger attacks will do more than 3 thunderstick attacks if the troll is on mountain-

18-1 -troll resistance= 14.4 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 43.2 x cth (chance to hit) = 17.28 damage.
6-2 -troll resistance= 4.8 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 14.4 x cth = 5.76 x 2 for 2 hits per attack = 11.52 damage.

results-
17.28= 17 damage vs 0 damage (from troll)
11.52= 12 damage vs 12 damage (from troll)

THUNDERSKICK WINS!!!
podunk wrote:In order to advance them I keep them in pairs. When I get a baddie into the red I have them attack with daggers so that one of them will for sure get the kill.
I think the keeping them in pairs is a good idea, since if both hit (refer to the terrain guide for thunderers earlier mentioned) it will almost always kill the unit. I disagree about attacking with daggers when you have a superior ranged weapon. The only times I would do this is when I'm facing the following-

mages
adepts
elvish archers (in decent terrain)
skeleton archers (duh)

I would even use the ranged attack on bowman and burners! (preferably not during day)
podunk wrote:Wonderful against mounted troops though! Very satisfying.
Yes, they are good vs mounted troops, due to their pierce weakness to attacks and 60- 80% cth. Have you ever faced thunderers however? It gets VERY annoying when they hit 2/3 times or more. Maybe you remember the times you miss more than the times when you hit. Since words didn't seem to get through to you, I'm hoping statistics will. :wink:
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JW
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Post by JW »

F8 Binds... wrote:alright, let's see if really 3 dagger attacks will do more than 3 thunderstick attacks if the troll is on mountain-

18-1 -troll resistance= 14.4 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 43.2 x cth (chance to hit) = 17.28 damage.
6-2 -troll resistance= 4.8 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 14.4 x cth = 5.76 x 2 for 2 hits per attack = 11.52 damage.

results-
17.28= 17 damage vs 0 damage (from troll)
11.52= 12 damage vs 12 damage (from troll)

THUNDERSKICK WINS!!!
Actually, this math is bad. After resistance the thunderstick does 14dmg, not 14.4, and the dagger does 5 damage if not strong, not 4.8. Also, there is a 50% chance the thunderer will be strong, giving him a 7-2 attack, 6-2 against trolls. So on average, the thunderer will deal 14MDP to trolls in ranged, 11 (5.5x2) in melee.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

alright, maybe my math wasn't exact, the point is that you take no retaliation damage when you use the thunderstick. true, the dagger attack would have a better chance to do some damage than the thunderstick, but any average or smart player would use the ranged, not the dagger. even with a troll in mountains, you are going to hit him almost every other time. the math redone-


18-1 -troll resistance= 14 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 42 x cth (chance to hit) = 17 damage.
6-2 -troll resistance= 5 damage x3 for 3 attacks, = 15 x cth = 6 x 2 for 2 hits per attack = 12 damage.

results-
17 damage vs 0 damage (from troll)
12 damage vs 12 damage (from troll)
14 damage vs 12 damage (if you are strong)

THUNDERSKICK (still) WINS!!!
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