Wesnoth 1.0: Northerners vs Northerners, the basics from me

[Gus]

Higher Game, do you have some replays of you playing, so that we can see in action those wonderful strategies you keep posting?

[JW]

the troll might not deal out as much damage as a grunt, and it might not have as much dodging, but remember that it makes up for it with regeneration and resistance, and almost all of the fighting takes place at forested/hilly checkpoints. Open field fighting is relatively rare. Surrounding a troll and killing it is easier in big areas, but this simply isn't a sitaution often seen in most maps.

I'm sorry, but this paragraph captures many of the thought processes I find wrong with most of your posts.

Flawed logic, situational reasoning, and invalid conclusions abound.

[Higher Game]

Well then, let's see your guide, then. You haven't made it yet. Until there are alternatives, mine is the gold standard until then, and even then, the new guides would have to be better than mine.

Other unit guides also lack replays. My guide stands on its own from its solid logic and anecdotal support.

[Zhukov]

Flawed logic, situational reasoning, and invalid conclusions abound.

Well then, let's see your guide, then. You haven't made it yet. Until there are alternatives, mine is the gold standard until then...

These two quotes are gold. Responding to an accusation by demonstrating it to be accurate. Brilliant.

[Higher Game]

Well, for all the criticism of the guide, I've yet to hear some decent rebuttals. I'm playing the orcish campaign on medium, and it's HARD. Grunts simply don't last, but I have 2 troll warriors already. The AI, as well as online players, tends to target weakened units, even if they expose themselves to further attacks. An injured whelp will draw out the baddies, and the other trolls will easily kill them when they're exposed.

I have lots of good archer types too, since I used just archers (and the odd wolf rider, just for villages) on the first stage, and it worked well.

Shan Taum The Smug is the level I just beat, and it's the hardest one ever. It was doable, thanks to the troll line. Ok, I saved/reloaded a bit near the end, but my damage received and taken are both within 5% of EV, so I wasn't too abusive there.

[Zhukov]

Well, for all the criticism of the guide, I've yet to hear some decent rebuttals.

I believe this is because the upper echelon players have given up trying to offer serious comment on you various guides. You never listen to critique, so why bother giving it?

[JW]

Well then, let's see your guide, then. You haven't made it yet. Until there are alternatives, mine is the gold standard until then, and even then, the new guides would have to be better than mine.

Other unit guides also lack replays. My guide stands on its own from its solid logic and anecdotal support.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11161

...but yes, it does lack Northies v Northies. Not to simply insult you, but I truly think some of your advice here is just plain bad. Grunts are an essential part in any Northerner force, and just as much so in Northies v Northies. Not only are they your best village holders (which is a crucial part in any army), but they also move faster and have better defense. The only unit they deal less damage to v Northies is the Whelp, so yes, they are indeed not worthless in the slightest reasonable person's imagination.

[Glowing Fish]

I think this strategy might work better when you can get truly great hordes of trolls, meaning lots of money to start with and lots of replacement money.
The thing about trolls is, they only have two strikes, and are easy to hit. So if it is only two or three of them against two or three assassins, you are going to have a higher chance of having a super frustrating run of bad luck.

[DraconicBlessing]

Well, for all the criticism of the guide, I've yet to hear some decent rebuttals. I'm playing the orcish campaign on medium, and it's HARD. Grunts simply don't last, but I have 2 troll warriors already. The AI, as well as online players, tends to target weakened units, even if they expose themselves to further attacks. An injured whelp will draw out the baddies, and the other trolls will easily kill them when they're exposed.

I have lots of good archer types too, since I used just archers (and the odd wolf rider, just for villages) on the first stage, and it worked well.

Shan Taum The Smug is the level I just beat, and it's the hardest one ever. It was doable, thanks to the troll line. Ok, I saved/reloaded a bit near the end, but my damage received and taken are both within 5% of EV, so I wasn't too abusive there. ;)

You'll find the trolls become more or less useless later on in that campaign. They get destroyed by all the human cavalry you'll end up facing.

[Gus]

Until there are alternatives, mine is the gold standard until then

hmmm, so if you had posted "Make mass Assassins against Undead", then it wouldn't have been a bad guide, because it was the first of its kind? Sorry, i don't buy that reasonning.

[Sombra]

I dont know higher Game why you insist that 1.11 is not stable.

Even the stable version is buggy. Sometimes the game crashes when I try and check a unit's stats during the opponents turn, while it's still moving. I don't have all the resistances memorized.

As for skeptics, the troll might not deal out as much damage as a grunt, and it might not have as much dodging, but remember that it makes up for it with regeneration and resistance, and almost all of the fighting takes place at forested/hilly checkpoints. Open field fighting is relatively rare. Surrounding a troll and killing it is easier in big areas, but this simply isn't a sitaution often seen in most maps.

higher game I annont comment on 1.00 but 1.11 is quite stable. The only "bug" I have seen is every 1 from 20 games there could be an OOS.

A very good programm to clean your computer and speed it up is : http://www.tuneup.de (I dont know if you can install it in English but it works very fine to optimize the speed of your computer and clean up the garbage windows tends to accumulate over the years.

Regarding your guide: How many times you can stay only in mountains and hills during a war to win the battle?

Trolls have bad resistances in villages and forests.

A human player will simply let you starve on your mountains and look for a battle on more favorable terrain and put troops on important mountains to prevent you from attacking.


Speed many times is essential first to steal villages and later on to concentrate forces at a point of attack. Trolls are very useful under the right circumstances but regeneration doesnt help it much if you are simply killed in 1-2 rounds of combat. (throw in an asassin who prevents regeneration)

My problems with your strategy is:

- No village holders or other terrain holder (forests´, open field...)

- No line crackers: How the hell bomb an enemy out of an important positon in 1 turn.

- Speed : You have wolves but what good is trolls if the other northerner has already ocupied the villages and good terrain?

- Trolls level very slowly.

- Your strategy needs many mountains + hills to work and an enemy who wants to fight on your terms.

All together reading your comments regarding the units it seems to me that you have to consider more the concepts of ZOC and taking care of your units.

Dont let them exposed or getting killed. Therefore you seem to prefer units which dont need much maintenance like trolls.

P.S: I looking forward to play with you in MP as soon as you upgrade to the last release. Perhaps you can convince me of your strategy.

[JW]

Topic title fixed.

I suggest adding "against an AI opponent with equal or lesser gold" into the title as well. Probably won't fit though.

[Gus]

Topic title fixed.

I suggest adding "against an AI opponent with equal or lesser gold" into the title as well. Probably won't fit though.

that was hilarious, sorry if it is OT, but i had to say it ^^

EDIT: to make it less OT, i wanted to answer to Higher Game one this:

Other unit guides also lack replays. My guide stands on its own from its solid logic and anecdotal support.

Your guide (and your various posts about strategy) is the only one i've read so far (and i think i've read most of those available through the search function) which is not supported by others. Usually, people say "this is good, i slightly disagree on that" but in your case, they say "this is rubbish". Moreover, the people doing that are experienced players, some of which have written guides that WERE convincing.
So, why not simply settle the matter by showing everyone how great a player you are? Honestly, i doubt you are, but i am a scientific mind: if you can prove i'm wrong, i'll be delighted to admit i was and to embrace the new theory. I'm sure this stands true for others as well. So, give us some replays, give a good spanking to Soliton, Dragonking, Becephalus, Pietro, etc, and then you might gain some credibility.

[Higher Game]

You'll find the trolls become more or less useless later on in that campaign. They get destroyed by all the human cavalry you'll end up facing.

I'm stuck on the last stage (ok, I looked it up, since I figured it HAD to be the last one, it was so damn hard), but my 2 surviving troll warriors are my greatest asset. The biggest threat I've gone up against are the gryphons that fly in from the dwarves, and they're weak against impact, making the troll warrior ideal. Also, a troll warrior is the best bridge guard.

I only have 100 gold, so I'm most likely going to give up, since taking on 2+ gryphons a turn, along with mermen and guarding the bridge, is just too difficult. Maybe replaying the earlier 2 stages would help out some, but you know I'm not a fan of that.

I don't remember any cavalry in the orc campaign. I think I fought 2 or so on the first stage, but that's it.

Regarding your guide: How many times you can stay only in mountains and hills during a war to win the battle?

Well, those are certainly the ideal terrain for trolls, but they do just fine out in the open, as well. Grunts are better in villages and forests, but orcs should generally avoid those terrain types anyway, and focus on their strengths instead.

A human player will simply let you starve on your mountains and look for a battle on more favorable terrain and put troops on important mountains to prevent you from attacking.

Of course he'll try that. I'll try and let him starve in his plains and look for mountains, hills, and chokepoints to take first. This is just faction balance, not an inherant fault of trolls.

Speed many times is essential first to steal villages and later on to concentrate forces at a point of attack. Trolls are very useful under the right circumstances but regeneration doesnt help it much if you are simply killed in 1-2 rounds of combat. (throw in an asassin who prevents regeneration)

If they can survive 1 round, they can be pulled back to regenerate and be replaced by a fresh one, which isn't hard, since they're only 13 gold. with a good formation to prevent getting ZOCed, they're a solid unit. As for speed, 2/3 times they will have the quick trait, giving them a nice 5 moves, which isn't fast, but adequate, and speed is mainly the job of wolf riders, anyway.

- No village holders or other terrain holder (forests´, open field...)

Open fields should be avoided, but wolf riders do a decent job if they can get it, kill 1 or 2 units, and escape. Grunts lack this speed, so they're likely to get killed back. Grunts ARE decent village holders, but as I said, that's only for desperate, defensive situations.

- No line crackers: How the hell bomb an enemy out of an important positon in 1 turn.

Trolls hit hard at night, and they have a good chance of being strong. Their main strength is wearing down the enemy over several turns, since they regenerate. This requires some good ZOCing, which is why wolf riders are helpful.

- Speed : You have wolves but what good is trolls if the other northerner has already ocupied the villages and good terrain?

Wolf riders are good village defenders. Breaking through villages is tough, so bringing an assassin can help out sometimes, depending on the situation.

- Trolls level very slowly.

True, but they don't get slaughtered as easily as most units, due to resistance and regeneration. When they DO level, it's a major event.

- Your strategy needs many mountains + hills to work and an enemy who wants to fight on your terms.

Most maps have plenty of hills and mountains. Those that have open terrain favor wolf riders and archers a little more.

Dont let them exposed or getting killed. Therefore you seem to prefer units which dont need much maintenance like trolls.

Wesnoth units are fragile, anyway. It only takes 2, sometimes just 1, units to kill another in a single turn. Trolls have guaranteed damage resistance, unlike dodging, which relies on luck.

[Gus]

Regarding your guide: How many times you can stay only in mountains and hills during a war to win the battle?

Well, those are certainly the ideal terrain for trolls, but they do just fine out in the open, as well. Grunts are better in villages and forests, but orcs should generally avoid those terrain types anyway, and focus on their strengths instead.

Grunts have 40% on Grassland, Trolls have 30%, so they don't "do just fine in the open as well".
Also, are you really planning to avoid _villages_? Sounds like a sound plan ^^