How to Play Loyalists

[5dPZ]

Loyalists vs Undead
Very good match up, almost an autowin if played right.
Again, our slogan....."Fight during day....retreat and sleep during night"....Correct! Follow it and our victory is assured.

Literally, we need only 3 units to beat undead.

MAGE: ok, what undead units are resistant to mage? ....*look for it hard*........*can not find any*
Yes, we want a lot of these little mages, as many as possible (of couse, we need other meatshields as back up).
Do note that they are fragile, so back them up using other units. I love to see the slaughtering of the dead to make them deadER during day

Killing Priority for mage: Ghost> Ghoul > Skeleton > Bat > Corpse

Heavy Infantry: You gonna love his impact damage; you also gonna love his heavy armor. There is only 1 unit that you need to watch out -- adept. And if you recruit a lot HIs and mages, you will find adept really easily.

Killing Priority for HI: Adept > Skeleton Archer > Skeleton > Bat > Corpse

Ok, there is only one way for your opponent to counter your army of Mages + HI, that is spam Dark Adept. Soon enough, you will find him only recruiting Adepts, perhaps with some corpses too. Here's when our third unit become useful.

Cavalryman: good for killing adept with his 20% cold resist, 8 movement, and 3 attacks (more reliable than horseman's 2). This unit is the BEST against army of adept (run around during night, and slaughter during day).
If not enough gold for Cavalryman, buy your cheap-O -- Spearman.
If your opponent ONLY recruit adepts, buy some mermen and abuse its 60% cold resist in 1.0.2. Feel free to fight on land against adept since their attack is magical anyway.

Overall: Buy 2 Cavalryman for initial recruitment. Spam HI + mage until you see more and more adepts, then recruit more Cavalrymen and spearmen.

Things to buy: MAGE, HI, Cavalryman.
Things not to buy: Archers, Horseman, Spearman (unless he's spaming adepts)

[5dPZ]

Loyalists vs Drakes
Best possible match-up you can find. There is almost no way to lose if played right.
Follow our slogan (not gonna repeat again) if your opponent is recruiting Sauran heavily.

Ok, we need only two and a half units for this match-up.
Archers: Kills Clasher, Fighter, Skimisher and Glider. Your opponent has NO way of countering this unit (a cheaper way, i mean), so recruit him heavily. When fighting Skimishers (which you will see a lot when you spam archers), use terrain really well (villages + mountains!) during night, and again, slaughter them during day.

Spearman: Ok, our cheap-O becomes superman in this match up. He can kill Burner, Augur and Glider. Combined with archers (two cheapest sodiers you can get, coincidently), you should have no problem dealing with any sort of drake opponent (or sauran opponent if he is forced to recruit sauran only ).

The War against drakes is an economical war, we don't win by quality, we win by numbers. Through constantly trading of our spearman/archer to his drakes, we will outnumber them really easily. WATCH out your villages! we need to limit our drake opponent 's income, so that he gets the same income as us, at best (which in the long run, we will prevail).

SO: ALWAYS GUARD ALL YOU VILLAGES YOUR OPPONENTS CAN REACH.

if a couple of gliders are stalling our backline and is too annoying, here comes our third player:

Horseman: finally, this guy sees some play (he's not suggested for other factions unless your noob opponent is massing certain unit). buy a couple of this guy and take out any staller that steal your villages. DON'T RECRUIT HEAVILY. remember, we need to win economically. this guy is too expensive for that purpose.

That's what I meant by two and a half units.

Things to buy: ARCHERS, SPEARMEN, horseman (a couple at most).
Things not to buy: Mages (no mages against drake, please)
Heavy infantry (too many fire and cold out there, let this dude take a rest when vs drake)
Fencers (1 is fine, no more than that)

[Sorrow]

Drakes and Loyalists are equal during the day, it depends on the player, Drakes arn't that easy to beat with loyalists... Undead is NOT an almost auto win so stop saying dumb things like that.


Mages are not as powerful vs the undead as you make it seem. Nor are spearmen/arcers end alls vs drakes, they happen to be capable of shreding your troops at day and have a lvl 1 healer, skirmisher, and the clasher isnt weak to piece.

The best lvl 2 unit with leadership is the flare


Heavy infantrymen arnt nearly as useful vs knalgans as you seem to think, since the knalgans basic unit is nearly as strong and is more versatile with better defences and resistances.


I dunno... i give up. I hate loyalists, figured I would read this for the hell of it annoy me.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Loyalists vs Undead
Very good match up, almost an autowin if played right.

Loyalists vs Undead:
Very good match up, almost an autowin if your opponent uses any of the stupid strategies described by 5dPZ.
Again, our slogan: "Fight during day, run away like sissies while being slaughtered and defeated at night."

Literally, Undead need only 3 units to beat us!

MAGE: ok, what undead unit will the Mage survive more than one turn against?....*looks for it hard*........*cannot find any*
Yes, we want lots of these little Mages, as many as possible (of course, we also need to spend all our gold on other things, so shucks.)

Killing priority for Mage: In terms of level 1 units, kill the ones with the weakest attack first.

Heavy Infantry: You gonna love his 2-swings mace; you also gonna love his 4-move-incuding armor. There are only about half a dozen units to watch out for - Ghouls, Adepts, Ghosts, sometimes even Skellie archers.

Killing priority for HI: In terms of level 1 units, kill the ones with the least melee first.

Ok, there is only one way for the opponent to counter your army of mages + HI; that is use good tactics. Soon enough, you will find that your opponent is only recruiting units that will absolutely slaughter your army. Here's where our third unit becomes useful.

Cavalryman: Good for not being totally massacred like the rest of our units, with his 20% blade resist, 20% cold resist, and 3 attacks (more reliable than the Horseman's charging Pierce against Skeletons.)
If not enough gold for cavalryman, buy your pierce-O -- Spearman.
If your opponent is really stupid, also exploit blatant unbalance in your old version of Wesnoth.

Overall: Buy 2 many cavalryman for your initial recruitment. Spam HI + Mage until your army is decimated, then recruit more cannon fodder and wimps.

Things to buy: 22-HP, 4-moves, 17 gold.
Things not to buy: Guys with pierce damage.
Things which you'll have to decide whether to buy on your own: Fencers.

[toms]

Initial Recruitment
If we don't know who we are fighting against, we better recruit a mix of units.

If I don't know what I'm fightning against (random), I recruit scouts. And set my focus on a flexible army. No, that's not what you said. You said a "mix of units". So, when do you not recruit a "mix of units"? If you know the enemy faction? For me, I play No Fog, so I always know the enemy class. But I still recruit a range of units, as it is harder to counter-recruit then.

If the map is small (ie. Clush, Blitz etc), most likely the first encounter will be 2-3 turns later which will be night. So we would like some good defensive units first.

I disagree. First you must grab villages. So you have to recruit some scouts. Scouts are generally not very strong, so you can resist the enemy scouts until reinforcement comes. Then some slower and stronger units are needed. But it is a bad idea just to wait until the night is gone. Your army will be fairly weakened at day, and you cannot make a decent rush. I'd rather try to hurt him at his weak points. Example: Use ranged units to kill a melee unit (e.g. a troll whelp), and then protect them with an infantry. You must be able to finish him at daytime, and you will not be able to if you just defend at night.

For Village grabbing: 2 Cavalryman, 1 Fencer
For Village guarding: 1 Heavy infantry, 1 spearman, 1 spearman/archer/cavalryman depends on personal preference.

Most of the villages are remote. It is a bad idea to send you infantery to protect them. The cavalryman has some resistance as well, and the horseman can blow most kinds of scouts, especially because of their low defense in villages. Exceptions are the ghost, the footpad and the gryphon. For those, the cavalry works perfectly.
Then, I would not take a fencer for village grabbing. I'd rather keep him close to combat, because is is quite strong and blade damage type is almost useless against scouts.
And the Infantery will not survive very long, if the enemy is smart enough to recruit a mage. Here the horseman, which you have forgot, comes into mind. Because of his big range, he often unexpectedly can reach into combat, and blow the mage.

If there are water villages nearby, drop the HI and buy 1-2 mermen.

That's true though.

General Army Make Up
This section is for vs. Loyalist, Rebel, Knalgans and Orcs IN GENERAL, and I will post specific match up later.

After grabbing all the villages you can, you need build an army that can assault your opponent frontline and take over their villages.

A typical 10 units Loyalist army should have:
6 spearmen/archers; If enemy is recruiting a mix of units, you should have 3 spearmen, 3 archers.
1 mage
1 heavy infantry
1 fencer
1 or 2 of your initial cavalrymen.

Important rule for playing: Build your strategy on what your enemy does. (all I say here)

If your opponent is recruiting Melee heavy, buy more archers;
if he is ranged heavy, buy more spearman.

Uhm...for what? What happens If I go Spearmen all the way, and you counter with archers?

If any of your "utility" units die, make it up by buying a new one unless it is not neccesary.

And what if you can't catch up?

Army vs Army
Now we assume two armies met, and it is day-time, we are ready to assault our opponent's force.

And if it's not daytime, we have lost...

First to go: Heavy infantry and Mages
Followed by: Spearman/Archers (remember: melee vs ranged, ranged vs melee when your attacking)
Last to go: Cavalrymen, Horseman
Go if needed: Fencers, Merman

Cavalrymen and Horsemen should _definitely_ go _first_. Then, a HI and/or a mage makes sense. But they should reach the battle the same time the spearmen/archers do.

Remember, units such as Fencers and Merman do NOT have to attack, sometimes, put them on a critical position or block your opponent's way of retreating is much more effective than dealing some damage.

'Sometimes' a fencer is more effective to break the enemy line than as cannon fodder. A merman is useful if there is water on a map, and you can reach the enemy or some villages well through the water.

Target Priority:
1. Wound units you can kill
2. mage/adepts
3. enemy villages (Steal if he can not take it back during his turn!)
4. important terrain
5. full-life units

1: Yes, might be good to eliminate units to have no trouble with them any more. (wounded units can still do damage)
2: A mage costs 20 gold. If you kill him before he gets used much, the 20 gold are gone to waste.(thinking of horsemen & berserkers here) Most of the time, a mage is in the budget only at the beginning. Apart from that it's also true for adepts.
3: How will he steal the village if you he just taken it before? There is a unit on it then.
4: Such as villages?
5: ya zink so? Look back to 1.
Over all, you cannot set a priority of targets. It always depends.

Don't attack any enemy units in villages unless you can kill it or almost kill it.

Yes, read the manual first.

Don't position your attackers beside important, empty terrain. For example, if you r fighting elves, don't put units beside a forest AND leave that forest open. Even you r wasting an attack by occupying that forest, do so

At least the enemy wastes an attack to free the terrain again. No, it is not a 'wasted attack' if you block strategic moves. Not even the half of gameplay is attacking, but other factors.

[5dPZ]

Loyalists vs Undead
Very good match up, almost an autowin if played right.

Loyalists vs Undead:
Very good match up, almost an autowin if your opponent uses any of the stupid strategies described by 5dPZ.
Again, our slogan: "Fight during day, run away like sissies while being slaughtered and defeated at night."

Literally, Undead need only 3 units to beat us!

MAGE: ok, what undead unit will the Mage survive more than one turn against?....*looks for it hard*........*cannot find any*
Yes, we want lots of these little Mages, as many as possible (of course, we also need to spend all our gold on other things, so shucks.)

Killing priority for Mage: In terms of level 1 units, kill the ones with the weakest attack first.

Heavy Infantry: You gonna love his 2-swings mace; you also gonna love his 4-move-incuding armor. There are only about half a dozen units to watch out for - Ghouls, Adepts, Ghosts, sometimes even Skellie archers.

Killing priority for HI: In terms of level 1 units, kill the ones with the least melee first.

Ok, there is only one way for the opponent to counter your army of mages + HI; that is use good tactics. Soon enough, you will find that your opponent is only recruiting units that will absolutely slaughter your army. Here's where our third unit becomes useful.

Cavalryman: Good for not being totally massacred like the rest of our units, with his 20% blade resist, 20% cold resist, and 3 attacks (more reliable than the Horseman's charging Pierce against Skeletons.)
If not enough gold for cavalryman, buy your pierce-O -- Spearman.
If your opponent is really stupid, also exploit blatant unbalance in your old version of Wesnoth.

Overall: Buy 2 many cavalryman for your initial recruitment. Spam HI + Mage until your army is decimated, then recruit more cannon fodder and wimps.

Things to buy: 22-HP, 4-moves, 17 gold.
Things not to buy: Guys with pierce damage.
Things which you'll have to decide whether to buy on your own: Fencers.

I have said this guide is based on 1.0.2 (read my first post). I have no idea the factions are balanced or not (compared to other versions), because that is the ONLY version i have played. What I thought was the stable version SHOULD be relatively balanced, but from your feedback, it seems wrong.

Also, Mage+ HI totally rule against Undead in 1.0.2 (unless your opponent if forced to recruit adept + corpses), if you think i am [censored] by saying such things because you have played another version of wesnoth, that is not fair.

Also, in 1.0.2, NOT IN OTHER VERSIONS, drakes ARE weak, and ARE dead to spearmen/bowmen. If you think that is not the case, you can play me. If you have balanced drake in other versions, it is good (because they need a balance), but that doesn't say my guide for 1.0.2 is wrong.

[turin]

True. It means you shouldn't write a guide for 1.0.2 because it is a flawed version...

[5dPZ]

True. It means you shouldn't write a guide for 1.0.2 because it is a flawed version...

It is hard to write a guide for development version because it is constantly changing. When 1.2 is out, i will definitely play it and see if I am skilled enough to write a new guide

PS: i am the type of person that does not sudden crush and bugs, thus, I would love to play stable versions only (so please make it as balanced as possible). Forgive me for not trying out those develpment versions

[JW]

I say don't write a guide for 1.0.2 because 1.2 is about to come out.....

[Elvish_Pillager]

Also, Mage+ HI totally rule against Undead in 1.0.2 (unless your opponent if forced to recruit adept + corpses), if you think i am [censored] by saying such things because you have played another version of wesnoth, that is not fair.

I think it's actually heavily dependent on the map. I don't know of Undead having been improved in any way that would relate to Mage/HI vs. Undead, but for instance on a map such as Charge, the Mages and HI will get nowhere. Also you've ignored the possibility of anything but Dark Adepts being worthwhile, while both Ghosts and Ghouls can be used (not that either of them is particulary good against cavarlymen either.)

[Kel]

Well, as long as he's written it I don't see why we can't talk about the subject at hand (namely his assessment of loyalist matchups in 1.0.2) or leave the thread alone entirely. It's like when Sauron wrote his luck-less mod and triggered a flame war on its existence -- if you think it's unnecessary, you could just not use it.

The places that his guide are inaccurate (mass mages/HI?), are a different matter, of course.

[Elvish_Pillager]

I only had _one_ little comment in my post about the version. Can we drop it already?

[jg]

A thing I've also noticed while playing loyalists, is that the fencer's are a really good addition to your army (except against Undead) while fighting practically any army. This is because they have a lot of 'defensive skills' (in other words, on a lot of terrains other units only have 30% chance to hit), and thus can keep their place in an excellent manner till maybe some other units come to aid.

jg

[Starev91]

True. It means you shouldn't write a guide for 1.0.2 because it is a flawed version...

It is hard to write a guide for development version because it is constantly changing. When 1.2 is out, i will definitely play it and see if I am skilled enough to write a new guide

PS: i am the type of person that does not sudden crush and bugs, thus, I would love to play stable versions only (so please make it as balanced as possible). Forgive me for not trying out those develpment versions

Actually I've been using the Dev. version (Mac OSX), and it hasn't crashed/bugged yet. True, I don't play loads, but you're being unfair to the dev. version, it's quite stable, just not perfect

Also, you haven't provided a counter strategy for when undead are using the reverse of your motto (and using it well). Ghosts can hold villages against almost anything but mages if they arn't incredibly unlucky or surrounded by 70% terrain. And what happens when they spam dark adepts/ghosts on your HI, and then follow through with a skeleton advance on your second like of mages? (Or flank you and kill the mages, then deal with the HI slowly with ghosts). Of course, I'm not an incredibly good player, just an average one (better then some newcomers, worse then many oldtimers, and currently incorperating Sun Tzu into my strategies ), so don't take my word as top notch, just as a consideration (in the area of strategy at least).