Elvish Shamans vs Mages in HttT

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Zrevnur
Posts: 24
Joined: January 11th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Re: Elvish Shamans vs Mages in HttT

Post by Zrevnur »

My take on this:

XP: Shamans are much easier to level than mages. The combination of low damage, heal and slow makes them the best unit type for actively maximizing XP from enemy units. So not only do they require less XP, they also can turn an enemy into more XP than other units.

Slow: The importance of slow I think depends a lot on difficulty and if one plays with reloading or not. If you can fix bad RNG by reloading then you may not need Slow. But otherwise in dense encounters (like can happen in Siege of Elensefar, Valley of Death and some others even if you try to avoid this kind of situation) it becomes much harder to protect important units. I think the AI cant handle 'slow' effect properly. It tends to not replace slowed units with unslowed ones and just keeps attacking with the slowed ones.
Leader Assault: In my gameplay assaulting leader keep usually involves a "slow strike". This significantly reduces the risk and I can then safely close with units which otherwise could be oneshot or tag-teamed by enemies.
And then there is the 'slow for damage' thing. This works out best with chargers. The particularly good thing here is that the slowing unit (Shaman) is also a healing unit so if you place the chargers adjacent to the slower you get then the heal too.

Mobility: This is one of the best advantages of the Shaman line. The ability to fly for Sylph/Shyde makes them IMO far superior to the mage line. And the Shyde is needed for healying Sylphs and other Shydes. So the flying on the Shyde isnt lost at all. In addition the flying is very useful for reinforcing if you have multiple fights nearby but cant know beforehand (due to RNG and AI decision making) where you will need how much power. There are also a few scenarios where even 6-move mages are simply too slow because the leader gets an extra turn and needs to move somewhere fast. Only with Shyde you can overcome this, White mage simply doesnt work in this situation. You would have to make a sacrifice (one turn lost on leader movement or hire mage one turn earlier) to compensate. Edit: Mobility is also critically important for divide-and-conquer - this also (ab)uses AI aspects. Only Silver Mages are potentially good at this too.

Tanking: I dont agree with this "keep the mages" always back kind of simplistic doctrine. Tanking should be done with anything suitable which cant be killed. Often higher level mage type units are best for that due to other units being wounded. There are even situations (Valley of Death suiciders) where tanking with mages is preferred over tanking with sturdier melee units. (This isnt necessarily an argument for/against mages vs shamans though.)

Silver Mages: These have a unique thing which can make them situationally the best units by far. Unfortunately this "situationally" part. On some maps they simply are just weak because they arent very good in a fight. So I think these are supplemental optional units.

Mage of Light: In the right circumstances (dense fight against chaotics outside of day time with Lawful units on my side) these are very strong. In other circumstances they are very weak due to their poor tankability and/or because the other side has lawful units. This makes them rather situational too. One thing which I personally dont like about them is the complicated positioning required to maximize their usefulness. This is similar to leadership. That part is just a game play/style preference though.

BTIsaac
Posts: 385
Joined: December 7th, 2017, 7:30 am

Re: Elvish Shamans vs Mages in HttT

Post by BTIsaac »

You can't rely on reloading to fix bad rng. Slow can be a game changer, especially when dealing with high damage units.

Zrevnur
Posts: 24
Joined: January 11th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Re: Elvish Shamans vs Mages in HttT

Post by Zrevnur »

BTIsaac wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 11:57 am
You can't rely on reloading to fix bad rng.
If I have bad RNG and reload from before the bad RNG by default BfW uses a new random seed and thus there will be new results if repeating the exact same actions. If I do that whenever I have bad RNG I will end up never having bad RNG.
Or maybe you meant something else?

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Krogen
Posts: 207
Joined: January 1st, 2013, 3:43 pm

Re: Elvish Shamans vs Mages in HttT

Post by Krogen »

In a campaign, especially one as long as this, you'll need both healers and heavy damage dealers. You also have to consider the fact that you can probably reach level 4.
I'd say Elvish Sylph and Great Mage are roughly equally good, but have different damage types, so using a mix of the two would be ideal.
On the other hand, i'd consider the White Mage line superior to Elvish Druid. So... i guess those should make up the majority of your healers.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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