Sleepwalker's randomness

[Sleepwalker]

Hello there!

Sure I'll change the tongue and spit. It was just a cosmetic liberty I took and is easily fixed. Being troublesome to speak with is something I didn't think about.

Hmm when I was drawing I didn't really think of these demons as being very orderly with all having the same gear and so, like a firmly structured military unit. But being at bit more chaotic and savage and with arrogance coming from power; wearing gear leaning to the individuals preference as they rise in rank. That's why the male and female have a bit different gear. And like tribal warriors they wear decorations. As for what the sprites were wearing I'm sorry I didn't know it was specifically leather armor. It looked a bit vague like it could be cloth or perhaps fur too...

Taking a closer look at unit description (shoulda, woulda, coulda done that before ) I think maybe I was a bit wrong. I know I read it before too, back when I was playing the campaign, so I thought I had the gist of them though it was awhile ago.

So to describe it like this; slightly less savage and more, lets say, dark elf mindset to them?

All right I will rework the fur to a leather armor, with a little of it kept for lining in the armor itself. I can add some armor to the females waist as well, though I'd like to keep some of the existing bling there so the armor will be shaped differently to accommodate it. But that should be fine I think, you didn't comment that they have differently shaped polearms.

[Iris]

Hmm when I was drawing I didn't really think of these demons as being very orderly with all having the same gear and so, like a firmly structured military unit. But being at bit more chaotic and savage and with arrogance coming from power; wearing gear leaning to the individuals preference as they rise in rank. That's why the male and female have a bit different gear. And like tribal warriors they wear decorations.

That makes sense, and indeed it’s not my intention for them to look all the same either.

So to describe it like this; slightly less savage and more, lets say, dark elf mindset to them?

I am not familiarized with these WoW-style “elves of a different color” factions, so I’ll put it like this: these demons in particular are generally supposed to be more savage than IftU’s northern orcs (which have become rather tame and civilized, funnily enough), but more civilized than their less evolved cousins, the imps. I believe I described the imp/demon relation as akin to goblins/orcs somewhere in the campaign unit or race descriptions, as well.

Or, putting everyone in a rough scale:

Verlissh Aliens < Basic Shaxthal Lifeforms < Imps < Regular Demon Mercenaries & Human Chaos Soldiers < Trolls/Goblins/Orcs < Elves/Other Humans < Dwarves

It’s hard to say whether the regular demons are more savage than the human troops or not.

[homunculus]

The demon grunt (especially the male) has dislocated jaw.
The previous version (lines) was better, it had extreme protruding chin, but the lower teeth seems to be the key.
If such protruding chin is not desired I suggest bringing the chin back a bit (or nose and forehead equivalently forward if moving the jaw would mess up the neck and things).

Edit: Although that is probably a nitpick about something that people will not be noticing (contrary to the jaw), I now see that you have also been naughty and "simplified" the foreshortening of finger joints on the male portrait.

qsnd6nys.png (5.67 KiB) Viewed 5731 times

As for the level 3 assassin, I hope you like the shading of the head of level 1 assassin more than level 2 assassin which seems extremely flat.

[Sleepwalker]

Hmm yeah homonculus, the fingers was slightly off, though I wasn't aware I had "been naughty", as I didn't really use real reference. Oh yes, I'm otherwise capable of naughtiness . I just looked directly at my hand. Not using proper reference is a sin though I guess. You made me take this photo, which shows another fault. The wrist is a bit off too.

As for the jawline I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I looked for "yell" on google image and there are several photos that look the same, even some that looks to me to have an even more distorted jaw... I did do some small changes though. I think you might misinterpret the wrinkle line work a bit... and it will look better once shaded.

Anyway I have done some redesigns on the stuff they wear. It's a bit different to what I said I would do... Not sure if you would like this more Shadowmaster. Yeah the cool-deemed waist armor got cut down some, to make our friends a little more similar, and truer to mostly wearing leather.

EDIT(forgot):

Assassin: I wanted to stay true to the palette, which granted could maybe use work. The lvl1 head might be more softly shaded, but it uses way more shades than needed in pixel art. I'm content with using the slayers palette for this.

EDIT2:

Might as well post some sketches of warriors and a zephyr too. Warning, possibilities of dodgyness exist.

[Iris]

Anyway I have done some redesigns on the stuff they wear. It's a bit different to what I said I would do... Not sure if you would like this more Shadowmaster.

Uhm. I think I prefer the version with fur, in retrospect. The female version still has an oddly bare midriff and part of her ribcage, which looks suspicious.

Regarding the Warriors and the Zephyr, by “possibilities of dodgyness” I assume you mean their anatomy isn’t finished yet? Anyway, just in case:

• There’s something odd with the male Warrior’s left arm (the one holding flame at our right) that makes it seem abnormally short, as well as his right arm, but that could be a matter of perspective that will be corrected by shading. (I’m not really very knowledgeable in these matters to nail down the problem, ugh.)
• The Warriors’ designs are cool, although I’m not sure what’s going on with the female Warrior; it looks like she got a Ghast belly implanted on her.
• The Zephyr’s portrait sketch is cut off at the top, leaving part of his/her wings out of the picture. Don’t forget that we should only crop portraits in the mainline style at the left and bottom, or the right and bottom. His/her tail is also notably missing. Nevertheless, the unusually dynamic pose looks very cool.

[homunculus]

As for the jawline I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I looked for "yell" on google image and there are several photos that look the same, even some that looks to me to have an even more distorted jaw... I did do some small changes though. I think you might misinterpret the wrinkle line work a bit... and it will look better once shaded.

It seems that when people draw side view of open mouth they tend to think of what the open mouth looks like, so they slide the teeth down and overlook that the yaw should rotate and the jaw bone should stay same length.
In front view, similar sliding would result in not having the lower teeth and chin at correct angle.
At least this is how I understand this problem.

Of course there's some back and forth jaw movement possible, like when blowing smoke rings, and I vaguely remember gorillas had some gestures where lower teeth forward or backward was said to make a difference (one of them was claimed to mean aggression), etc.

Looking at this image (or the 'yell' images from google), you might ask: if this person closed the mouth, would the teeth connect?
The impression I get from the male demon grunt is that if he closed his mouth, his lower teeth would be way too much forward, somewhere under the tip of the nose.
If I try to figure out where the center of rotation of the jaw would be, so that the teeth might connect, I get the impression that it would be too low, near this little bony protrusion on the jaw.

I hope that clarifies what I see there, whether I misinterpret it or not.

[Sleepwalker]

The jaw is not fixed like a joint, its more flexible than that as it is held up by muscles and sinew with no hinge.

First: She seem to be yelling in fear/shock rather than fury. I've noticed that many tend to jut the jaw a bit forward when yelling in fury. take a look at this. The second image advocates your point, while the first and last supports mine with their jutting jaws. Here's another example. Perhaps you want to see the lower row of teeth disappearing upwards into his mouth on the portrait, but right now it is hidden by the tongue and thickish outlines. I have more examples but its enough I think.

Second: In the picture you show the woman seem to have a roundish face and not as angular as the demon. People can look all from ape-like with sloping forehead, protruding mouth and small chin. To having almost concave features (ex. Quentin Tarantino).

Third: Dunno if relevant, but keep in mind that the face muscles look different when angry. One tend to put on a sneer face and frown when angry. That can affect how wide the mouth is.


Shadowmaster:
Alright, the female grunt has the makeshift leather (I wanted to kind of give the impression of strips of skin for the leather) placed on top of the old fur now, covering more skin, more than the original with the addition of the leather. Is this more appropriate?

The males furthest most arm I can make longer, but I am not sure how to fix the foreshortening of the (cold!)magic one... We'll see. Yup the female is meant to have a kind of painted on maw on the armor, with the cloth a little like a tongue, just to try look more scary.

Yeah I intend to extend the height of the zephyr portrait. The tail I kind of forgot.

Thanks anyway.

[AI]

There's a tangent between the leather strap on the side of her left shoulder and the top of the bottom spike on that shoulder. At first glance this makes it look like the strap is covering the spike. You probably want to extend the spike a bit to fix this.

[homunculus]

The jaw is not fixed like a joint, its more flexible than that as it is held up by muscles and sinew with no hinge.

I am aware of that, in the previous post I did try to write that yaw can move forward.

One of your reference pictures does look bit unnatural to me, as if it was cut from a corner of a photograph, but when I did 'View Image' on it, I saw the larger version.
The chin is protruding, but the teeth do connect reasonably, nowhere near past the nose.

Perhaps it is your artistic decision to go for the tough guy look somewhat analogously to this, though in a different way.

Therefore, the comment about the jaw would have been better like this:
Some people, seeing the jaw forward beyond the point of what looks natural and comfortable might think it looks more threatening that way.
Some people like myself might get an association with dislocated jaw and loose appetite.
I think you have exaggerated beyond that point.
Which might, of course, be good for countering the obesity problem, but then again some people like myself are quite lean already : )

Maybe the lower jaw line should end bit lower compared to the lower end of the ear.
Maybe the eyes are supposed to be pointing upwards towards the sides?
Eye locations make me wonder if the horns are in the correct location.
Not saying the portrait is bad, some fishyness does contribute to the overall impression in a positive way, I think.

[Sleepwalker]

Maybe the lower jaw line should end bit lower compared to the lower end of the ear.
Maybe the eyes are supposed to be pointing upwards towards the sides?
Eye locations make me wonder if the horns are in the correct location.
Not saying the portrait is bad, some fishyness does contribute to the overall impression in a positive way, I think.

Fine, the back-most jawhorn got moved down a little, and the chin horn protrudes less.
That the eyes was pointing slightly down wasn't a concern for me in this case, as to me the view gives the impression that he is elevated. But sure moving the eyes is trivial so I've done it.
I had noticed the horns and was lazily hoping no one would notice . fixed now.

One of your reference pictures does look bit unnatural to me, as if it was cut from a corner of a photograph, but when I did 'View Image' on it, I saw the larger version.
The chin is protruding, but the teeth do connect reasonably, nowhere near past the nose.

Perhaps it is your artistic decision to go for the tough guy look somewhat analogously to this, though in a different way.

Therefore, the comment about the jaw would have been better like this:
Some people, seeing the jaw forward beyond the point of what looks natural and comfortable might think it looks more threatening that way.
Some people like myself might get an association with dislocated jaw and loose appetite.
I think you have exaggerated beyond that point.
Which might, of course, be good for countering the obesity problem, but then again some people like myself are quite lean already : )

Riiight, well this along with the other snide remarks you have been dishing out to other people in other threads I find myself caring less and less what your opinion is. Or if you feel ill or whatever looking at various flaws in the game or peoples abilities. I appreciate your interest and willingness to critique, but the attitude leaves something to be desired.

To answer your question: No, I was not going for a ridiculous lantern jaw, but yes, I wanted a brutal look to this particular demon.

AI: Yeah I see what you mean, I think its fixed now.

Thanks.

[Iris]

Shadowmaster:
Alright, the female grunt has the makeshift leather (I wanted to kind of give the impression of strips of skin for the leather) placed on top of the old fur now, covering more skin, more than the original with the addition of the leather. Is this more appropriate?

Well... The change doesn’t really address my previous comment:

The female version still has an oddly bare midriff and part of her ribcage, which looks suspicious.

[homunculus]

Sorry if I offended anyone, and thanks for the feedback on the attitude.

Indeed I was wondering if the need to soften crits was a myth, based on how useful I found the uncensored crits in my campaign thread, compared to the softened crits that always left me puzzled about what they really meant.
If this is how it made you feel, I guess this attitude can be counter-productive sometimes.

[Sleepwalker]

Yeah I admit my skin is not as thick as some, I found your remark belittling and I tend to get pissed off on such things. Thanks anyway no offense taken... OK I find myself much more willing to follow your advice now, if your still willing to give. Do you still find the jaw too unnatural?

Shadowmaster:
I thought you meant the original female grunt was OK with that, while not the leather one. I suppose it might approach the chain mail bikini thing too much... I'll cover it up, even though I don't like to, as its my best effort to draw abs so far .

As to a question I didn't answer in your earlier post: Yeah the sketches are bound to have anatomical faults, I have already discovered much wrongness with the arm of the male warrior... I'm still having some trouble to learn how certain muscles are placed in different angles. If I was drawing demons as wesnoth portraits I figured bodybuilder physiques would suit nicely. Being powerful, magical (I think) and otherworldly (also described as beautiful, though whether my visualizations are is way open for debate. Eye of the beholder and all that.) as opposed to drawing regular humans who might not be so sculpted (Khalifate still needs a lot of portraits)... Though that's only part of the reason. It will perhaps increase immersion in IFTU, and drawing these bad guys is fun .

[homunculus]

As soon as C&C is understood, I don't think there is any point in arguing about artistic decisions, I hope you understand what I mean.

The whole head feels bit as if pressed along the length, and as for the jaw (as a consequence), I feel the back of the jaw is bit not long enough in the vertical direction, and even more the cheekbone might be too low, same for both genders (here's a spot where I would put an association that you might not want to read).
When I said some fishyness contributes in a positive way, I did mean it, because it gives a more tense impression that way, and I would actually be a bit disappointed if you changed all proportions to feel extremely natural.
Nothing extremely disturbing there, considering your intentions the way I understand them.
The male demon seems to have protruding upper teeth, the upper lip and the nostrils might be a little more forward, but that might mess up the fold along the side of the mouth, and might contribute to dog-faced impression, which would probably be unfitting.

What might be a point of viewers attention, though, is the spot between the eyes not having a curve to it.
And the folds come bit too low on the base of the nose.
It looks as if you have tried to fit too many lines in a too tight space, and compromised the shape.
Maybe some of it could be replaced with shading or something.
The thing I suggest to do is to move the near-the-nose end of (his) right eyebrow (along with the skin fold on the forehead) slightly towards the right (in the picture), which would align the nose and the center line of the forehead, and also create some more space between the right eye and the center of forehead right above the base of the nose (like stronger eyebrow bone).

The side muscles on top of the ribs are the nicest part of the demon female also in my opinion, but that depends on whether "chainmail bra" impression is desired.
Also, the fur version of the female looked more busty in a good way in my opinion.

What I first see on the zephyr is the biceps and the triceps, and especially the biceps might look more characteristic if it was less curved outwards along its length, and come down more towards the elbow (and have the more pronounced curve near the elbow) if the arm is stretched out like that (as far as I understand, this is often the shape that bodybuilders want to achieve).
You seem to have already put some sinew part between the elbow and the triceps, I think it might look cooler if the sinew part was longer and the bulk of the triceps bigger.

Edit: Thought about it a bit more, and it seems the location of horns is related to location of ears and the location of ears is related to location of cheekbones, and the location of cheekbones is related to how much space you have for the back part of the jaw, so it depends on how much effort you want to make to move the ears, or something like that, especially that I doubt many people are going to look at it that way, unless they are farmers who work with animals or something.

[Iris]

Being powerful, magical (I think) and otherworldly (also described as beautiful, though whether my visualizations are is way open for debate. Eye of the beholder and all that.)

The “beautiful” part in the race description actually refers to demonkind in general, especially at the beginning of times (hard to be sure, since I wrote this so long ago!), and especially so (most of) the Original Ten. Since then, they branched out everywhere and there are many kinds of demons which may or may not meet the original description (elves certainly do).

Of course, the fighter demons seen in IftU and AtS are not intended to be entirely hideous, unlike their less nimble imp relatives. I think you have done an excellent job in portraying them according to my original intentions.