What to do with the Ulfserker?

[Noy]

That "flavour" was the worst thing about it. Dwarves do not commit suicide. That's a very, very bad thing about the unit.

When applied properly the ulf is almost always one of the fastest leveling units for the Knalgans. It is by no means a "suicide unit" as you suggest. Used properly and protected as such it is one of the most powerful units, with a fatal flaw. It lives without fear of the fight, believing in its own supremacy in combat. Thats not suicidal by any means.

T'S STILL EASY TO KILL WITH THOSE UNITS. For one - it is completely incapable of attacking them. Ever - even with the change, you can never attack one of those units at full health with an ulfzerker. The ulf will die, and that is a severe problem.

Stunning logic... by that thinking, every unit should have equal possibility to attack each other. Spearmen should be able to kill ghosts easily.

As stated before, that is not the balance of the berzerk ability.
The balance of the berzerk ability is that the Ulf could be "100% killed" when it attacks. It is, by nature, unable to attack over half the units in the game.

Ulfzerkers are already much easier to kill than a dwarvish fighter.
The unit DOES NOT need an additional weakness.

keep repeating it. Not all units are able to kill each other. By the nature of the game Assassins aren't able to poison 1/2 of the units in the game... should we change poision to cover all of them?

Funny - dwarven fighters are relatively easy to bring down, and Ulfzerkers are much worse on defence.

Firstly I'd disagree that dwarves are easy to kill. Knalgans as a whole are a finesse faction, they rely far more heavily on terrain to give them an advantage than even the elves do. When utilized on their terrain Knalgans are among the toughest opponents, almost impossible to dislodge effectively. Furthermore I agree that the fighter has problems... Others as well as myself have advocated it being reduced in cost, given better modifiers or better attack. However the Ulf is by no means "underpowered." In the right conditions it ensures the death of another unit including weakened front line units.

9.0 showed how ridiculous not having berzerk is, so much so that it was banned from being used as a faction in many games.

The balance of the berzerk ability is this: In return for a higher chance of attacking and killing units weaker than itself in melee, the berzerker gets a high chance of being killed if it attacks a unit stronger than itself in melee.

The berzerker becomes very useful against units weaker than it, but useless against units stronger than it.

NO, because you;re just talking about #3 usage, the ability to kill secondaries, when #2 The ability to ensure the death of ANY weakened unit is just as, if not more valuable than #3. This is what makes the Ulf special. It kills units more effectively than any other unit in the game.

Adding on "berserk on defence" adds an additional, severe weakness to the unit

Okay Jethryl you tell us how the game works. We played 9.0, and it was a consensus that the Ulf became unbalanced. We showed that it was overpowered, over countless games played... but you seem, in the face of all this experience to say that "it isn't overpowered." We'll just take your word for it.

[Jetrel]

IT'S STILL EASY TO KILL WITH THOSE UNITS. For one - it is completely incapable of attacking them. Ever - even with the change, you can never attack one of those units at full health with an ulfzerker. The ulf will die, and that is a severe problem.

Stunning logic... by that thinking, every unit should have equal possibility to attack each other. Spearmen should be able to kill ghosts easily.

Uh, does attacking = killing? Not usually.

Spearmen can attack ghosts. They won't do much damage, but that's the point - five spearmen can kill a ghost without losing a spearman by attacking it individually and slowly whittling down it's health.

What I'm saying is that the ulfzerker does not even have the option of attacking the unit to weaken it unless it chooses to die. Five ulfzerkers versus one ghost will require an ulfzerker to die.

keep repeating it. Not all units are able to kill each other. By the nature of the game Assassins aren't able to poison 1/2 of the units in the game... should we change poision to cover all of them?

I don't remember undead being half the units in the game.

Funny - dwarven fighters are relatively easy to bring down, and Ulfzerkers are much worse on defence.

Firstly I'd disagree that dwarves are easy to kill.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said dwarvish fighters, not dwarves in general. When the fighters reach level-2, they become quite difficult to kill, like most other dwarves, because their resistances increase significantly.

However the Ulf is by no means "underpowered." In the right conditions it ensures the death of another unit including weakened front line units.

So does a mage - this is irrelevant. We're not talking about offensive capability, we're talking about defensive capability.

The balance of the berzerk ability is this: In return for a higher chance of attacking and killing units weaker than itself in melee, the berzerker gets a high chance of being killed if it attacks a unit stronger than itself in melee.

The berzerker becomes very useful against units weaker than it, but useless against units stronger than it.

NO, because you're just talking about #3 usage, the ability to kill secondaries, when #2 The ability to ensure the death of ANY weakened unit is just as, if not more valuable than #3. This is what makes the Ulf special. It kills units more effectively than any other unit in the game.

BUT IT TAKES DAMAGE WHEN IT DOES. This is its flaw, one that is not shared by many other units - even horsemen have a chance of killing the enemy before it can strike back. In almost every fight it takes part it, an ulfzerker will lose at least a quarter of its health. This is its unique weakness.

Ranged units can kill weakened front line units with impunity.

Adding on "berserk on defence" adds an additional, severe weakness to the unit

Okay Jethryl you tell us how the game works. We played 9.0, and it was a consensus that the Ulf became unbalanced. We showed that it was overpowered, over countless games played... but you seem, in the face of all this experience to say that "it isn't overpowered." We'll just take your word for it.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the 9.0 version was not overpowered, or unbalanced.
I don't think the ulf has ever been balanced, even with the change in the berzerk ability.

It needs some other, severe changes. Balance is not a linear system - it operates in several dimensions.
Having berzerk off on defense is a good thing, but useless without several other changes.

[Jetrel]

In fact, I'm done with this argument. I'm sorry I even tried to reason with you.

A mark of how infantile your conduct is, is that since I merely disagree agree with you, you have taken me and my opinions as enemies - it doesn't matter if I'm right or not - you wouldn't accept my opinion either way.


I don't have time to work on what I need to do to properly test the knalgan faction as I would have them be - not for several weeks now. I bid you adieu.

"12:15. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels."

[dtw]

No longer did the equal disadvantage exist for the ulf... it could go along its merry way and kill as it wished, and could not be easily killed in return. There was the unbalance... that the unit could not be killed.

The ulfserker is and always has been vulnerable to ranged attacks - i think this is frequently overlooked by certain players - to me a unit with such a special melee attack cries out to be victimized by ranged units

[dtw]

Also, I am largely with Jetryl's logic regarding strengths and weaknesses on this one.

Most other arguements here take the debate to a very specific level - basically it appears that there are several players that are very good with knalgans and equate "fun" with the way they play their games and the advantages they ahve discovered and exploit - i.e. it fun to play it the way they play it.

So, if those people are forced to use the unit in a differnet way then it becomes less fun for them - i don't think the balancing of a unit throughout the entire game in two vastly different settings i.e. SP and MP, should depend VERY SPECIFICALLY on the way that a minority of players use that unit in multiplayer.

I think context specificity is vital in most things and i respect Noy's deep analysis but the problem, i feel, is that a solution based on specifics will be almost impossible to implement generally.

How about a standard for campaign is agreed and add berserk options in multiplayer to be decided by the players themselves each game?

[Big Bad Joe]

This discussion went a little bit off theme. Maybe that Jetryl is right, maybe that Noy is. Basically, ulf is totally unusefull unit in 9.1 ( inability to kill even secondary units and this inability means death of ulf - that is just about missing resistances..). If somebody does not think so - meet me on the MP server ( In most multiplayer games nowadays there are no ulfs used).. It was grossly overpowered in 9.0 ( Hope that this is a statement everybody will agree with). So how to make ulf usefull and not overpowered again?
1) There is a way of slow balancing of ulf through defense and resistances with NBOD ( No berserk on defense), but this way will be extremely hard and I am not even sure, that it is possible to make it.
2) And there is a second possibility of reverting ulf back as it was in 8.11. That means take out NBOD and give back resistances. This way is fast and non problematic. Majority of MP players I know had no problems with "suicidal" ulf in 8.11 and there were no complaints at all from better players ( ok, EP did, but completely on his own.).
Ofcourse there are another possibilities like berserk for just three rounds etc., but it will take a lot of ulfs uniqueness and it is harder to make than reverting him back again..
I understand your points Jetryl, but I did not find any solution in your posts. You are just saying: Reversion is bad. Let us hear your complete idea about ulf. This means: Movement, resistances, attack values etc..

[turin]

I think the proposed solution from Jetryl is 0.9 values, except berserk only extends the combat for 3 rounds, not for infinite rounds. That will mean berserk does not always result in a kill, making it less overpowered on that front.
I support this.

I know WINR, but this change has the added benefit of making the berserk specialty at least physically possible. There is a 1 hour time limit on battles (since it could take up to 3 hours for the unit to travel to the combat)...

[Noy]

I'm going to start with this post.

A mark of how infantile your conduct is, is that since I merely disagree agree with you, you have taken me and my opinions as enemies - it doesn't matter if I'm right or not - you wouldn't accept my opinion either way.

I asked for this thread to be created, so that we could have a intelligent discussion about the Ulf. I posted my argument extensively discussing the issue as comprehensively as possible, while expressing my opinions. You claim that I've been infantile, and that I've taken this personally. However I've tried to be as professional as possible, trying to maintain decorum, because I as the other multiplayer players regard this as our chance to voice our arguments and have a discussion about it. You Jethryl have made some arguments which I've responded to, but in addition to his have continually made denigrating comments about us. This is an excerpt from the mailing list EVEN BEFORE this thread was created...

I think those "representatives" have no idea what they are talking about. They say "the squeakiest wheel gets the oil." Please don't fall for that.
These people are trying to force the conception they previously had of the unit onto what it has changed into. They're trying to make it be something it is not, and they are pouting when it doesn't work out right.

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/wesno ... 00018.html


And you claim that I wasn't going to listen?

Then after my post, which I tried to be as in depth as possible you said this;

I'm going to put this in bold just so it sinks into your heads:

You constantly speak down to us as if we know nothing about this game and that our view of flawed. I've played or watched an inordinate amount of MP games over my time, I'd like to think that I have something to say, as do most people on here.

Also...

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the 9.0 version was not overpowered, or unbalanced.
I don't think the ulf has ever been balanced, even with the change in the berzerk ability.

Actually you did claim that the changes didn't go far enough, that they were underpowered, which is the exact opposite of what everybody else claimed:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15

Frankly, I disagree with that business about the ulfzerker as well - the ulfzerker and guardsmen are still a bit on the weak side even after the change. I've played at least twenty games on 0.9 against knalgans, and they put up a miserable showing.

As for the substantive aspects of your posts, I'll try to reply to them tonight when I get more time. I just don't appreciate being called infantile when I've tried to be professional about this discussion.

[Fluffbeast]

No longer did the equal disadvantage exist for the ulf... it could go along its merry way and kill as it wished, and could not be easily killed in return. There was the unbalance... that the unit could not be killed.

The ulfserker is and always has been vulnerable to ranged attacks - i think this is frequently overlooked by certain players - to me a unit with such a special melee attack cries out to be victimized by ranged units

Perhaps the ulf should be given a second attack, either ranged or melee. That will increase its usefulness, and make second level ulfs more valuable as well.

[ott]

See http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5867 for a script to calculate exact probabilities for units killing each other in a single skirmish. Unless I have made some horrible mistake with the application of probability theory, it should provide support for some of the views expressed here.

It seems berserk amplifies small differences between units, leading to sometimes very non-intuitive differences in the %-to-kill values. Therefore, I think we should stop arguing based on general feelings and focus on continuing to argue based on facts.

[Kamamura]

What to do with the berserker?

I really like the fact that his resistances have been removed. To balance him, I would increase his attack a bit, maybe 5-4, or even 6-4, and he would be fine.

After all, this is a suicidal unit, doing heavy damage, but suffering great wounds himself.

[js138]

No, that's the last thing we need. The berserker, even with the resistances nobbled, is still a powerful unit - it's just no longer a front line unit.

This is closer to the 0.8.11 model in the way it is used, and that's no bad thing.

Berserkers still mow down mages and dark adepts, have a decent short at archer types in general and are a good way to inflict damage on a leader without using up a hex of frontage. I'm far from convinced they are underpowered. They're just no longer overpowered as they once were. They were reduced from 5-4 for a reason.

[kangounator]

ulf are special i mean there's not a lot of special unit like this one and they can do thing useful

[Tux2B]

Personnaly, I use bersekers to be sure to kill units that are nearly dead, or mages with low HP, or units that are about to upgrade. And I must say it got a bit harder since 9.1 version. Ulfs are now a little too weak, I think. They should have a little more HP, or be less expensive.

[dtw]

I generally think the three round limit is the way forward but I have another suggestion to limit the ability. Could "berserk" depend on the health of berserker? I was thinking that maybe it would be possible and address many of the issues.

When a unit has lost a certain percentage of it's health the HP bar goes red, is that correct? I suggest that when a berserkers HP bar enters the red area he can no longer begin a new round of combat against the same target - any new combat initiated when he is already in the red zone would just be normal combat.

This prevents the dwarf from suiciding (in most cases, see below), which is un-dwarflike, because he will stop berserking when critically injured yet still defends himself as a normal unit when attacked and can be forced to attack a unit even when he is critically injured, which, i think most people will agree, is often a last ditch when tried with any unit.

Of course berserk should again be offensive and defensive as it would provide less guaranteed kills - in fact while attacking a similar unit they should both end the combat with very little health but if the dwarf gets lucky he can still kill his opponent and if the other unit is a bit more lucky he can still kill the dwarf - but it is slightly in favour of the dwarf, as it should be.

Generally, in offense, he is the same old berserker, as long as he is healthy and attacking weaker units (always his forte). But defensivly there would be a whole load of possibilities that might make things very interesting, you'd have to play test i tho to really know what it was like.

As his berserk ability will then depend on his health status of course resistance then become a big issue but i think, if this method is tried, it would be better to fine tune them later