Some Changes to Traits
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Some Changes to Traits
I'm making the following changes to traits:
- loyal units now cost 0 upkeep
- loyal is no longer given as a random trait
- units may be given traits explicitly using the macros {TRAIT_LOYAL}, {TRAIT_INTELLIGENT}, and so forth in their [unit] definition inside a [modifications] tag.
- at the current time, units given to a player in a scenario still have 0 upkeep. However it is recommended they are given the loyal trait as this may change in future, and to make it clear to players what's happening
- traits may now be specified to be valid for a certain race by putting a [trait] tag inside a [race] tag. The Elves now have a new trait called 'dextrous' which gives their ranged attacks +1 damage.
- traits may now be specified inside a unit type definition, and units of that type may get that trait. This feature is not yet used in any standard game data.
David
- loyal units now cost 0 upkeep
- loyal is no longer given as a random trait
- units may be given traits explicitly using the macros {TRAIT_LOYAL}, {TRAIT_INTELLIGENT}, and so forth in their [unit] definition inside a [modifications] tag.
- at the current time, units given to a player in a scenario still have 0 upkeep. However it is recommended they are given the loyal trait as this may change in future, and to make it clear to players what's happening
- traits may now be specified to be valid for a certain race by putting a [trait] tag inside a [race] tag. The Elves now have a new trait called 'dextrous' which gives their ranged attacks +1 damage.
- traits may now be specified inside a unit type definition, and units of that type may get that trait. This feature is not yet used in any standard game data.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Wohoo! Awesome! 
It's a big change but a necessary one. It really fixes the problem with loyal, and I like the new dextrous trait. As long as we don't get too many traits, I like the idea of racial traits. Perhaps each race getting just one trait might be a cool idea, though I fear we'd run out of interesting traits.
It's a big change but a necessary one. It really fixes the problem with loyal, and I like the new dextrous trait. As long as we don't get too many traits, I like the idea of racial traits. Perhaps each race getting just one trait might be a cool idea, though I fear we'd run out of interesting traits.
Creator of Under the Burning Suns
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Elvish_Pillager
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First of all, great changes! I like it when big changes-for-the-better happen! 
Of course, now we have to get into a big argument over the races' traits! Hooray! 
Let's give Drakes the trait "Mutant" that makes their ranged attacks do Cold damage! 
Yes, I like its very direct way of dealing with the Loyal problem.quartex wrote:It really fixes the problem with loyal,
Of course, now we have to get into a big argument over the races' traits! Hooray! Let's give Drakes the trait "Mutant" that makes their ranged attacks do Cold damage! It's been that way for a long time, but it's nice having the macros in the official distrobution.Dave wrote: - units may be given traits explicitly using the macros {TRAIT_LOYAL}, {TRAIT_INTELLIGENT}, and so forth in their [unit] definition inside a [modifications] tag.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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Viliam
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Re: Some Changes to Traits
Now you have completely ruined my game strategy...Dave wrote:- loyal is no longer given as a random trait
I agree that it could make the game more balanced, but unlike many others, I am not interested in balance. I am interested in winning; which was always difficult, even on so-called "easy" difficulty. Now I need to find some other strategy. Or probably, I will edit the CFG files, hahaha!!!
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Elvish_Pillager
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It was overpowered. You could have your army be slightly weaker in some regards, but as a reward for that slight weakness, earn hundreds upon hundreds of gold.dibblethewrecker wrote:What was wrong with loyal anyway?
Not to mention that in multiplayer Default era, it was next to useless.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Since we need new race specific traits I'd like to point to this thread and the fast-regenerating|healty|vigurous trait: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3142
It can be usefull for humans or orcs, I think.
It can be usefull for humans or orcs, I think.
Re: Some Changes to Traits
Right....but if to win we had people having to 'exploit' the loyal trait, then the game is obviously too difficult.Viliam wrote: Now you have completely ruined my game strategy...
I agree that it could make the game more balanced, but unlike many others, I am not interested in balance. I am interested in winning; which was always difficult, even on so-called "easy" difficulty.
This just makes this more blatant, and forces us to balance it
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
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Woodwizzle
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Dextrous to me doesn't sound like a trait that adds damage. Dextrous sounds more like it improves the chance to hit a target or to avoid being hit. I think we could come up with a better evlish trait name. Perhaps Acurate? although that also sounds like it imporves the chance to hit. Hmmm... i'm having trouble coming up with an alternative. I'll try again later.
Also, since we lost loyal as a random trait and only elves get the new trait, generally units are gonna be less different because there are less possible combinations of traits. I personally think we should have LOTS of traits (some race specefic, maybe even some class or sex specefic). Its good that you guys shut down ideas that would break the game balance, because I don't want traits just for the sake of traits, however I'm sure there are some more simple traits that could be implemented that meet all the requisites (simple 1 rule description etc.)
Couple o' ideas:
Possible for everyone:
Nocturnal, or Night Owl: +10% damage at night no matter what alignment (bonus stacks with alignment, one way or another)
Diurnal, +10% damage during the daytime (same/opposite of nocturnal)
Cautious, Aware: +5% to defense under all circumstances
Fearsome: Has the opposite effect of leadership but on enemy units. In other words putting this unit near enemies makes them less effective in battle.
Pious(sp?)
Resistant to Holy damage.
Charred, Seared:
Resistant to Fire damage.
Arctic, Glacial, Frigid:
Resistant to Cold damage.
Elvish only traits:
Animal Afinity, Beastfriend, (could use better name). -75% damage done to animals or beasts because s/he can't bring himself to hurt animals. but also -75% damage done from aniamls because they respect the unit and also cannot bear to hurt them.
Eagle Eye, Eye of Falcon, 20/20 vision. Unit can see one hex farther than other units. (only applicable in FOW or Shroud games) I think this is a valid trait and I don't see anything wrong with having a trait for just those types of games.
Ent only traits:
Gorgeous Flowering, Budding: This ent is covered in gorgeous blooming flowers causing a leadership like effect to lawful units. Whether they be on the same side or not.
Herbal, (whats that word for herbal medicine... aaaahhh! i'm doing terrible on names here but the ideas I think are solid): Plant has medicinal properties. It heals others like a healer but only 1hp each. Perhaps at the exspense of offensive properties?
Saurian traits:
Chameleon skin: Unit becomes invisible if it stays in the same hex for a turn (like resting).
Undead traits:
Rigor Mortis, Stiff: Unit gains +10% defense but loses 1 movement point.
Fresh:
Honestly thought it sounded cool but couldn't think of anythin'
Dwarven traits:
Furious: Has small percent (5% or maybe even less) chance that any meless attack acts as if it were berserk. (trait cannot be given to berserker)
Human only:
Lone Wolf, Loner, Stranger: Unit acts as if it always is under the influence of the leadership ability except when there is a leader near by. Then the unit acts as normal.
Persuasive, Savy, Entrepreneurial:
When unit captures a village it will produce 150% gold (rounded up). So under normal rules (1gp per village) they would generate 2gp.
Fundamentalist:
Can affect units of the same side and same alignment as if with leadership.
Orcs only:
Cruel: An extra attack but all attacks do less damage (Dealer of slow but painful death!)
Those are just a few i came up with now. The names are bad but some of the ideas are doable, balanceable, and probably even useable =)
Corey[/b]
Also, since we lost loyal as a random trait and only elves get the new trait, generally units are gonna be less different because there are less possible combinations of traits. I personally think we should have LOTS of traits (some race specefic, maybe even some class or sex specefic). Its good that you guys shut down ideas that would break the game balance, because I don't want traits just for the sake of traits, however I'm sure there are some more simple traits that could be implemented that meet all the requisites (simple 1 rule description etc.)
Couple o' ideas:
Possible for everyone:
Nocturnal, or Night Owl: +10% damage at night no matter what alignment (bonus stacks with alignment, one way or another)
Diurnal, +10% damage during the daytime (same/opposite of nocturnal)
Cautious, Aware: +5% to defense under all circumstances
Fearsome: Has the opposite effect of leadership but on enemy units. In other words putting this unit near enemies makes them less effective in battle.
Pious(sp?)
Resistant to Holy damage.
Charred, Seared:
Resistant to Fire damage.
Arctic, Glacial, Frigid:
Resistant to Cold damage.
Elvish only traits:
Animal Afinity, Beastfriend, (could use better name). -75% damage done to animals or beasts because s/he can't bring himself to hurt animals. but also -75% damage done from aniamls because they respect the unit and also cannot bear to hurt them.
Eagle Eye, Eye of Falcon, 20/20 vision. Unit can see one hex farther than other units. (only applicable in FOW or Shroud games) I think this is a valid trait and I don't see anything wrong with having a trait for just those types of games.
Ent only traits:
Gorgeous Flowering, Budding: This ent is covered in gorgeous blooming flowers causing a leadership like effect to lawful units. Whether they be on the same side or not.
Herbal, (whats that word for herbal medicine... aaaahhh! i'm doing terrible on names here but the ideas I think are solid): Plant has medicinal properties. It heals others like a healer but only 1hp each. Perhaps at the exspense of offensive properties?
Saurian traits:
Chameleon skin: Unit becomes invisible if it stays in the same hex for a turn (like resting).
Undead traits:
Rigor Mortis, Stiff: Unit gains +10% defense but loses 1 movement point.
Fresh:
Honestly thought it sounded cool but couldn't think of anythin'
Dwarven traits:
Furious: Has small percent (5% or maybe even less) chance that any meless attack acts as if it were berserk. (trait cannot be given to berserker)
Human only:
Lone Wolf, Loner, Stranger: Unit acts as if it always is under the influence of the leadership ability except when there is a leader near by. Then the unit acts as normal.
Persuasive, Savy, Entrepreneurial:
When unit captures a village it will produce 150% gold (rounded up). So under normal rules (1gp per village) they would generate 2gp.
Fundamentalist:
Can affect units of the same side and same alignment as if with leadership.
Orcs only:
Cruel: An extra attack but all attacks do less damage (Dealer of slow but painful death!)
Those are just a few i came up with now. The names are bad but some of the ideas are doable, balanceable, and probably even useable =)
Corey[/b]
...
Having so many traits, more than five or six traits would get really confusing kind of quickly. It's the same as the reason that there aren't hundreds of units, to make it easier to handle without having to look up what each one does.
On another note, instead of giving this trait only to elves, couldn't you give it to all units that have the type of archers?
On another note, instead of giving this trait only to elves, couldn't you give it to all units that have the type of archers?
I agree with you... to me, dextrous sounds like a triat that would make the unit better at avoiding hits (what you suggested as cautious or aware.) Accurate would definately be a trait increasing chance to hit... in fact, I already made that suggestion.Dextrous to me doesn't sound like a trait that adds damage. Dextrous sounds more like it improves the chance to hit a target or to avoid being hit. I think we could come up with a better evlish trait name. Perhaps Acurate? although that also sounds like it imporves the chance to hit. Hmmm... i'm having trouble coming up with an alternative. I'll try again later.
I think 'Precise' would be a good word for it.
Last edited by iBrow on February 28th, 2005, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rogue
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I agree that Dextrous doesn't seem to fit. What you are looking at is the archer's ability to hit more vital locations on an enemy. Something like "critical shot" sounds fitting, but for the fact that all traits are currently one word.
I do think each race should have one race-specific trait to add further flavor and distinction between the races.
Possible traits:
Loyalists
Darkvision - unit ignores nighttime penalty
Orcs
??? - unit ignores daytime penalty
Dwarves
Resistant / Hardy- +10% to all resistances
I do think each race should have one race-specific trait to add further flavor and distinction between the races.
Possible traits:
Loyalists
Darkvision - unit ignores nighttime penalty
Orcs
??? - unit ignores daytime penalty
Dwarves
Resistant / Hardy- +10% to all resistances
<rcarello>
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Simons Mith
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...
I think having different traits for different races is a bad it makes the game much too complicated. However, I do think that a strong trait for archer types is a bad idea, here's my solution:
for fighters:
strong as it is now
for archers:
dextrous as proposed for elves
for fighters:
strong as it is now
for archers:
dextrous as proposed for elves