Dwarvish Guardsman = Super Unit?

[Rhuvaen]

I just played against an AI controlled Knalgan alliance and they swarmed me with Dwarvish Guardsmen . I was playing Loyalists and didn't have a chance, because all my units would do 1 damage on their attacks (maybe 2 for the stronger ones). Didn't matter that I was fighting them in the forest .

Good attacks, incredible resistances, plus a decent ranged ability that can take out your mages sounds a bit too good as a package deal. I can't say for certain though, because there's a bug when I try to view the Unit Description on the right-click menu: the game pauses a while, then there's a dialog with the message:

"Parse Error whne parsing help text: 'Ref markup must have both dst and text attributes'."

So while I can't really compare their stats and resistances, they seemed near-invincible in numbers and I had to expend 3 units to kill one of theirs. And the matter just gets worse when they level easily because they sit there, resist attacks and get XP for it.

Would like to hear what others have to say about them.

Rhuvaen

[miyo]

Go to http//units.wesnoth.org when Wiki is back online (should be withing 24 hours).

- Miyo

[Elvish_Pillager]

No, look in the "Dwarvish_Guardsman.cfg" file. It's much quicker, given the situation.

[Neoriceisgood]

It's attacks aren't all that, but it -won't- die on one turn; so if you swarm it with mages you will lose a mage or two because he can attack them with his melee.
als, he's practicaly immume to pierce; don't use it.

[scott]

I would have to agree here.

There were 2 loyalists (me and 1 AI) and 2 Knalgans.

While the loyalists both killed the dwarf lords quickly (they did not recruit many defenders), the one lone defender they did recruit managed to hold off the entire AI loyalist army for 24 turns, leveling in the process. It made my job easier.

[Neoriceisgood]

I must say that there -is- something wrong, at certain times units do 1 damage to it even when it comes to 15 or something at normal; with both blade -and- pierce.
I can believe that loyalists have trouble against a unit that drains damage like this against physic damage types.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Finally seeing it in game:

How the HECK do you justify a unit with 90% resistance against 2 damage types and 110% resistance against another?

Granted, on defense only, but this is RIDICULOUS.

Give it normal dwarf resistances.

[Neoriceisgood]

I can agree on that it needs high resistances to work like it should; however both blade and pierce are useless against it as you need 11+ damage before you start doing more than 1 damage, and for the two main attack types this is insane (I came to a moment where I could do more damage with a drake burner + level 3 leadership than the leader (flameheart) himself)

[Elvish_Pillager]

(I came to a moment where I could do more damage with a drake burner + level 3 leadership than the leader (flameheart) himself)

When damage percent becomes more valuable than damage amount, THEN you have a problem.

Dwarvish Guardsmen are the problem.

Give them normal dwarvish resistances. 60% resistance to most damage types is enough.

[Sangel]

This is a problem with the way Wesnoth calculates damage, not an inherent problem with the Guardsman unit.

The steadfast ability is intended to make a unit suffer (and deal) half damage when defending. Translated into our present system, that means a -50% to the opponent's damage.

The trouble comes when this is stacked with the Guardsman's natural resistances (and, often, other attack penalties). Instead of suffering half of what it would normally suffer, it's only suffering 10% or so of what the attack would suffer, which translates to a lot less than half damage.

Illustration:
*The Stalwart attacks and takes a 10-damage bladed hit. With 40% bladed resistance, it suffers 6 damage.
*The Stalwart gets attacked and takes a 10-damage bladed hit. With 40% bladed resistance AND 50% "steadfast" bonus, it suffers 1 damage.

[Invisible Philosopher]

This is a problem with the way Wesnoth calculates damage, not an inherent problem with the Guardsman unit.

The Guardsman was created with the knowledge of the way Wesnoth calculates damage, and the knowledge that that way is not going to be changed; therefore, it is a problem with the Guardsman unit.

I don't care much about which scheme it uses to calculate damage, but since it is one of the basic rules of Wesnoth, I'm used to it, and it's not going to be changed (well, maybe it is, but I doubt it. This problem doesn't come up in most situations, so there isn't much need to change it.)

[Neoriceisgood]

Ah thanks for that Sangel, so should it be modified so that this can't happen? I found it obvious that paochers would only do 1 damage when using their bows; but practicaly anything but drake's fire breath was 1 damage....this kinda ticked me off..

[Elvish_Pillager]

This is a problem with the way Wesnoth calculates damage, not an inherent problem with the Guardsman unit.

It is still a problem with the unit. If we support the method, we must tone down the unit. If we support the unit more than an inherent aspect of the combat system... then something's messed up.

[Neoriceisgood]

We let.....THE DEVS decide.

[Sangel]

Incorrect. It's a problem with the steadfast ability, not the unit itself. If the Steadfast ability is modified to be applied after other damage modifiers as a multiplier, then the problem will disappear.

In fact, this used to be the way damage was handled; as multipliers. Unfortunately, it resulted in extreme-case results when it came to damage bonuses, rather than the present extreme-case results when it comes to damage penalties. That was part of the rationale for switching to the current system.