Proposal: Eliminate the Holy damage type.

[Eleazar]

"arcane" and "mystic" sound OK,
but how is being attacked by a beam of light "arcane" and/or "mystic"
in a way that being attacked by a massive fire-ball, or a glowing ball of cold energy is not "arcane" or "mystic"?

In other words, these terms are equally approriate for the vast majority of "cold" and "fire" attacks. Finding a synonym for "magic" IMHO is a poor replacement for "holy". "Holy" gives you some idea what kind of resistances many units would have. "Arcane" or "mystic" do not.

[Temuchin Khan]

"arcane" and "mystic" sound OK,
but how is being attacked by a beam of light "arcane" and/or "mystic"
in a way that being attacked by a massive fire-ball, or a glowing ball of cold energy is not "arcane" or "mystic"?

In other words, these terms are equally approriate for the vast majority of "cold" and "fire" attacks. Finding a synonym for "magic" IMHO is a poor replacement for "holy". "Holy" gives you some idea what kind of resistances many units would have. "Arcane" or "mystic" do not.

True. But as many have noted, "holy" does not sound like a damage type.

Some other ideas:

Holy Ray
Holy Blast
Holy Wrath
Sabaoth {Hebrew for "Lord of Hosts"}
Crusade
Jihad

I'm not saying I would particularly favor these, but they would at least have the advantage of retaining the sense of the term "holy" while at the same time indicating in some way that of "damage."

Other ideas, similar to "holy," but not indicating "damage":

Apotheosis
Oblation
Cult
Cultic
Ritual

Here's a new idea:

Avert

Blade, Pierce, Impact, Fire, Cold, Avert

I could get to like "avert," insofar as it indicates what "holy damage" is -- namely, warding off and destroying evil

[Redeth]

Damage can come from no outside force. Alexander the Great died that way.

If you mean death by natural causes, then the main force at hand is quite evident: Time.

On the other hand, dying from a disease, for instance, very often means millions of viruses causing damage to individual cells, not out of being "bad", but because that's what they do. The force is life, survival, the need to multiply, the life of many at the expense of one, in this case. To translate this natural phenomenon into a usable attack for a computer game: "bio-weapons", a damage type perfectly suitable for, say, Spacenoth.

And if you mean dying of poison (some say Alexander was poisoned, though there is no proof of it), then the force is either biological as mentioned before, or most likely chemical, also a valid damage type.

What force would it be, if a sorceror cast a spell on you that stopped your heart?

NONE. Just plain black magic.

You gave the answer yourself, black magic is nothing but the manifestation of the forces of death, in their perpetual struggle against 'white magic', which represents the force of life and creation.

By "force" I mean any entity having this: "The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power". Without a force there's no chance for damage. Arcane and mystic are just funny ways to say "unknown, misterious", they represent nothing. Or everything, for that matter. Which makes no sense.

This is how they work.

Nice. Reminds me of a powerful combo of dark magic mixed up with some wind and water elements thrown in. The great forces of Evil and Nature in action, a true classic. But if you say that's "arcane damage", I believe you.

The point - you don't need to understand at first glance. The results demonstrate the damage. It's the "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" principle. The unwashed savages might never understand what arcane power is, any more than they understood what a heartattack was. Victims just die, and that is comprehensible, and all they need to know.

If you threatened a man of 1850 with being irradiated to death, he would just say ... "Huh?" If you (seriously; you could assume it's torture or something) threatened a man of 2000 with being irradiated to death, he'd be legitimately frightened.

I understand your point, however my point remains: the other damage types are well known and make sense, but neither arcane or mystic do, so they'll stick out like a sore thumb as much as holy did (perhaps even more)

I hope we can lay any arguments about "incomprehensibility" to rest. By having magic at all, we erect a certain "suspension of disbelief". Magic won't ever make sense, because by definition, there is no explanation for it.

Well I never bought that argument, "it's magic, it doesn't need to make sense". Of course there's no scientific explanation for it, since it doesn't exist, but the fact that magic is not real does not imply it has to be stupid. Anyone can create a fantasy world full of absurd creatures, imaginary places and silly notions all covered under the forgiving blanket of the word "magic" in order to entertain a child for a while, but it takes a master to create a consistent fantasy world, one that makes sense even though it isn't real, that fascinates both children and grown-ups because everything has a decent explanation, an origin and a reason to be (magic forces included).

Well the damage makes sense, but for the most species there is no intuitive way to rate their resistance against it (it makes sense, but often a very different sense among people).

Precisely. Why would undead be more prone to receive 'arcane damage' than other creatures? Arcane has no 'holy', 'life' or 'good' connotation whatsoever. Arcane magic vs Shadow magic? No way... in fact they seem pretty similar.

1) disruption
Concerning Disrupt: Redeth never heard of a mace of disruption?

As a replacement for holy damage? Certainly not, I'd be worried if I did.

Disruption is a valid type of damage, though, or sub-type of damage, to be more precise. Along with corruption, disintegration, explosion, etc., they represent the raw forces of mayhem, havoc and destruction. If holy damage, for some bizarre reason, should become this monstrosity, then just call it chaos and get over with it.

"arcane" and "mystic" sound OK,
but how is being attacked by a beam of light "arcane" and/or "mystic"
in a way that being attacked by a massive fire-ball, or a glowing ball of cold energy is not "arcane" or "mystic"?

In other words, these terms are equally approriate for the vast majority of "cold" and "fire" attacks. Finding a synonym for "magic" IMHO is a poor replacement for "holy". "Holy" gives you some idea what kind of resistances many units would have. "Arcane" or "mystic" do not.

Exactly, good point.

Blade, Pierce, Impact, Fire, Cold, Avert

I could get to like "avert," insofar as it indicates what "holy damage" is -- namely, warding off and destroying evil

It'd be hard to get used to it... but at least makes sense.

Anyway, this is getting way too long and repetitive so don't worry, this is my last post on the subject. I just wanted to say it's a shame that you seem to aim for the no-reason-to-be-other-than-cool-sounding version of fantasy concepts, instead of taking the more thought-out route. Then again, the problem could be just me being too old for this crap, taking this too seriously and asking too much from a simple game that is meant for kids.

In fact, as I seem to be pretty much alone raising all these issues, I'm almost certain that is the case, so never mind my ramblings, I withraw all arguments and I happily vote for arcane too, simply because arcane totally rulez 'n soundz much betta than mystic btw aint she da hot blue mutant babe from x-men dam shez hot i dun like her eyez tho too wierd wha iz mystique oh sayz who then yeah ok whuteva who care im hungry cya losaz lolz pwned!!1


Just give it a thought. Or don't, it's probably not worth it.

[Sapient]

Time for a restatement to get the conversation back on track. I (and many others) think holy is perfectly fine-sounding damage type, but it lacks versatility for granting weakness to other targets than undead or demons. If it's going to have such a one-dimensional role it will probably be replaced by a weapon special. So now you see why these renames are being proposed-- as the introduction of a more versatile damage type. This is why a synonym for holy is not an acceptable replacement for the name.

[Temuchin Khan]

Time for a restatement to get the conversation back on track. I (and many others) think holy is perfectly fine-sounding damage type, but it lacks versatility for granting weakness to other targets than undead or demons. If it's going to have such a one-dimensional role it will probably be replaced by a weapon special. So now you see why these renames are being proposed-- as the introduction of a more versatile damage type. This is why a synonym for holy is not an acceptable replacement for the name.

I have no problem with making "holy" into a weapon special. In fact, I suggested just that, at least for the Paladin and the IE's Airiya Magauuan about two months ago. Given the relative rarity of units with holy attacks, that might be a very effective solution.

The name I suggested for this weapon special was "hallowed."

Besides, finding a good name for a unique damage type available only to White Mages, Mages of Light, and Paladins that makes sense and is not merely imposed upon them but is not as "narrow" as (or "narrower" than) "holy" isn't easy. Words similar to (though not synonymous with) "holy" just might fit the bill, as long as their meaning is somewhat broader than "holy".

[Oreb]

Hallowed sounds good, to me it brings to mind 'Holy' and 'Revered', which both lead to descriptive words of God, which is known as a 'Banisher' of evil.

[Sapient]

I have no problem with making "holy" into a weapon special.

I see several problems with making holy into a weapon special. I'd rather leave it as it is (a rarely used damage type) than have it become an inflexible weapon special.

Besides, finding a good name for a unique damage type available only to White Mages, Mages of Light, and Paladins that makes sense and is not merely imposed upon them but is not as "narrow" as (or "narrower" than) "holy" isn't easy. Words similar to (though not synonymous with) "holy" just might fit the bill, as long as their meaning is somewhat broader than "holy".

The proposed examples (disrupt, mystic, dispel) are words which would do exactly this. If you think they don't make sense then maybe you could come up with something better... if 'holy' doesn't work then why would 'hallowed'? Granted, 'hallowed' is a fine name for some other purpose, but I think you are missing the point of what is being discussed.

edit: I have just learned that 'holy' may still be one of the names in consideration for this expanded role. So, I guess holy synonyms are fair game. I stand corrected!

[Jetrel]

Besides, finding a good name for a unique damage type available only to White Mages, Mages of Light, and Paladins that makes sense and is not merely imposed upon them but is not as "narrow" as (or "narrower" than) "holy" isn't easy. Words similar to (though not synonymous with) "holy" just might fit the bill, as long as their meaning is somewhat broader than "holy".

The boldfaced statement is what we're trying to free ourselves from.

We're looking for something flexible enough that it could get used for a number of general "magical" attacks. It's quite possible that "mystic" damage could be given to the saurian augur line, for one example.

Something general enough that it can be used for both "holy" attacks AND general "non-elemental magic" attacks. The holy nomenclature would remain on the weapon names of the "holy" users.

[Temuchin Khan]

Words similar to (though not synonymous with) "holy" just might fit the bill, as long as their meaning is somewhat broader than "holy".

The proposed examples (disrupt, mystic, dispel) are words which would do exactly this. If you think they don't make sense then maybe you could come up with something better... if 'holy' doesn't work then why would 'hallowed'? Granted, 'hallowed' is a fine name for some other purpose, but I think you are missing the point of what is being discussed.

I would ONLY favor "hallowed" if holy were changed to a weapon special. In any other case, I don't think it would work either.

edit: I have just learned that 'holy' may still be one of the names in consideration for this expanded role. So, I guess holy synonyms are fair game. I stand corrected!

"Supernal" -- it means "being or coming from on high" and "superlatively good" (thus capturing many of the same meanings as "holy"), indicates the source from which it comes, is (more or less) non-elemental, and is broad enough that it can mean almost anything we want it to mean

Blade, Pierce, Impact, Fire, Cold, Supernal

[Rhuvaen]

"Supernal" -- it means "being or coming from on high" and "superlatively good" (thus capturing many of the same meanings as "holy")

I guess we're looking for a word describing a mode of dealing damage, no matter where that damage came from. There are a lot of accounts in various mythical traditions and religious scripture surrounding supernal intervention by the use of an enemies' weapon or a rain of fire. So really, supernal does very little to indicate a non-elemental nature.

Something general enough that it can be used for both "holy" attacks AND general "non-elemental magic" attacks.

What's wrong with "spiritual"? That would seem to fit the bill, although I'm not saying it has a particularly nice "ring" to it.

[Temuchin Khan]

I guess we're looking for a word describing a mode of dealing damage, no matter where that damage came from. There are a lot of accounts in various mythical traditions and religious scripture surrounding supernal intervention by the use of an enemies' weapon or a rain of fire. So really, supernal does very little to indicate a non-elemental nature.

Something general enough that it can be used for both "holy" attacks AND general "non-elemental magic" attacks.

"Radiant" would most nearly fit these criteria, I think.

blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, radiant

[zookeeper]

My choices in order (just in case people oppose "white" enough to block it):

1. White
2. Ether

And remember, that the damage type name is not the only explanation you'll ever get for what it is or does: it will be explained in the unit descriptions of units that use it (most notably the white mage line, probably). Arguing that some name "doesn't make sense" is pointless (well, personally I don't see why the nature of the damage type needs to be immediately obvious from the name alone), because we are supposed to also make it make sense, instead of only doing rename + balancing changes.

I might actually even prefer ether over white.

[Eleazar]

"Radiant" would most nearly fit these criteria, I think.

I like that.
It's less specific that "holy" (and it's synonyms) allowing wider use,
but more specific that "magical" (and it's synonyms, mystical etc.), thus being distinct from a magical "cold" attack.

I'm working under the assumption we're looking for a label for this basic concept:

...refers to a rare type of purifying magic attacks that are intended to dispel other forms of magic and energy. It is most effective against units that are animated by magic, like the undead and to a lesser extent, the Drakes. However it also can be used to cause considerable harm to non-magical beings such as humans and dwarves, with sages surmising it attacks their life energy.

My comments on "white," IMHO one of the worst substitues seriously proposed:

"White damage" is technically a gramatical phrase in English, but it sounds like nonsense or a translation error.
I agree with Darth Fool that many other terms already mentioned, such as "holy," "dispell," and "mystic," etc. are better descriptions of Noy's concept.

[Temuchin Khan]

I posted this in another thread, but since it has relevance here, I thought I would post it here too:

I like "arcane," too -- it sounds the best. Currently, however, I think "radiant" is the option that best fulfills the developers' stated criteria. I did decide what I would want to call the "order"-type attack suggested in this thread, though: something like "morph" or "morphic" or "remorph" or "allomorph." The idea would be that the attacker attampts to rearrange the composition of the defender.

Undead being magical constructs in the first place, it makes sense for them to susceptible to this sort of an attack.

As for demons, it is not uncommon for them to be portrayed as incapable of anything other than destruction. Such a creature would arguably be unable to resist an attempt to rearrange its fundamental composition and would therefore be vulnerable to an "allomorph" attack.

Other sorts of creatures would be more or less vulnerable depending on the degree to which they are dependent on magic and/or incapable of taking constructive action in the world.

I still favor "radiant" or "arcane," but I wanted to propose the "amorph" idea as well.

blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane
blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, remorph {morphic, morph, allomorph, amorph}

blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, radiant

[Darth Fool]

I would like to propose the following criteria, even though it eliminates some of my own proposals The word for the damage type should have a form which sounds good in the following sentence in the place of holiness or blade:

"The holiness of the sword did far more damage to the vile creature than the blade."

Note that holy(holiness), blade, impact, fire, and cold(ness) all work reasonably well. Pierce (Piercing) is a weaker, "The piercing of the sword did far more damage to the vile creature than the impact." it kind of works, but a good noun to replace it would be good. "point" comes to mind. If the proposed word requires another word after it to make it make sense (white magic, mystic power, arcane power, etc...) than it should be excluded from consideration as a damage type. Thus verbs and adjectives are excluded unless they have a noun form that fits the sentence.

edit: to put it in madlibs form:

The noun of the weapon did far more damage to the adjective creature than the noun.