Some additional civilizations would be nice...

[Dave]

IMHO "Dark Elves", or at least "Evil Elves" could exist, but they would be very different to how most people seem to envisage them.

Rather than being dark, twisted, obviously evil creatures, they would look like other Elves. In fact, they would probably be the most beautiful and glamorous of Elves. They would look very much like the High Elves.

What would make these "Dark Elves" so dark is their approach: they would strive for perfection, and view humans and other races as lesser beings that can't stop themselves from endless fighting and violence. These Elves would decide that their purpose is to bring peace to the world by conquering it, and ruling over all these lesser beings with an iron fist.

These Elves would lust after power, wanting to control the world at all costs.

It would be somewhat like what Galadriel showed she had potential for in LotR.

I don't think that this would even require another faction though. They would simply be High Elves that have corrupted aims as described by the storyline of a campaign.

David

[JW]

...so not Elves that live in the dirt...

[Zhukov]

...a great idea for the Dark Elves.

I reckon that's an excellent idea.

Problem is, unless I'm mistaken, aren't the Dark Elves (whatever they're called) already being made? Or even completed. I seem to remember something about people playtesting them.
I'm not sure whoever made the faction would be happy about such big changes at this point, not if they are up to the playtesting stage...

[romnajin]

IMHO "Dark Elves", or at least "Evil Elves" could exist, but they would be very different to how most people seem to envisage them.

Rather than being dark, twisted, obviously evil creatures, they would look like other Elves. In fact, they would probably be the most beautiful and glamorous of Elves. They would look very much like the High Elves.

What would make these "Dark Elves" so dark is their approach: they would strive for perfection, and view humans and other races as lesser beings that can't stop themselves from endless fighting and violence. These Elves would decide that their purpose is to bring peace to the world by conquering it, and ruling over all these lesser beings with an iron fist.

These Elves would lust after power, wanting to control the world at all costs.

It would be somewhat like what Galadriel showed she had potential for in LotR.

I don't think that this would even require another faction though. They would simply be High Elves that have corrupted aims as described by the storyline of a campaign.

David

I really like that vision of the Dark Elves, a much less "brutish"(like the orcs) but more sinister evil, would these elves be a new design, or do you plan on shifting the current ones that assasin is producing into the dark elves that you have this idea for? And how do you plan on doing this without another faction, would you just use High Elf art and change the names to Dark Elf, and have their storyline motives? Or is what you mean by your statement, that they would just be a small group of high elves who broke off from the larger group, therefore requiring almost no modification at all. And turin, if Dave's vision of dark elves became what is used, would you still quit?

[Maeglin Dubh]

Romnajin! I'm impressed! Some real paragraphs! Good job, mate, knew you could do it. (Not sarcasm, I'm really glad.)

I can see both sides of the argument. The Dark Elves, as they are now, are almost too similar to the DnD version, and I could see why Turin would be opposed to their inclusion. But I like Dave's proposal, of them not being necessarily part of the whole underground, Matron Mother cult of Dark Elves, but imperialistic High Elves.

I do think that the Dark Elves, as they now stand, don't really have a place in Mainstream. But the Dark Elves, as they could be, could represent an aspect of the Elves heretofore unrepresented in mainstream Wesnoth. Whether or not this is desireable remains to be seen.

[db0]

Here's an interesting variation of elves.

Cats.

Beautiful, playful and unbelievably cruel and self-centered

[Dave]

would these elves be a new design,

They would simply be Jetryl's High Elves, with one or more campaigns telling their story.

or do you plan

Actually I don't "plan" on anything at the moment.

It's just an idea that I'm throwing out there in the hope that some campaign designers might want to pick it up.

It could involve a human 'servant' of the High Elves who follows their orders, thinking they are good, but then has to question their goals. I think it could lead to a fairly interesting/involved story if done right.

on shifting the current ones that assasin is producing into the dark elves that you have this idea for?

Assassin has his own view of dark elves, and I wouldn't want to tamper with or interfere with his vision and creativity.

And turin, if Dave's vision of dark elves became what is used, would you still quit?

FWIW one thing we don't base decisions on in Wesnoth development is people threatening to quit if they were to happen. Many important, key people have quit over Wesnoth's development cycle. This is a normal part of a project's development. I would not refrain from adding a feature that I thought was a genuine improvement just because someone threatened to quit if it went in.

David

[turin]

Exactly. My statement was not a threat or anything anyway...


I think Dave's idea is pretty interesting. Obviously, what we would need first is completed graphics for the High Elves.

[Halaah]

i wonder where the dark elves come from and where theyre staying at... and while your at it maybe wesnoth should include more continents since there are too many factions and races destroying the place?

[Temuchin Khan]

i wonder where the dark elves come from and where theyre staying at... and while your at it maybe wesnoth should include more continents since there are too many factions and races destroying the place?

True, but some of the factions are already supposed to be on a seperate continent far to the west, like the Lavinians and the Aragwaithi.

[Jetrel]

If assassin's dark elves did get added to mainline, which is quite unlikely for all factions (aragwaiths are first in the cue, because they're somewhat better animated than the units currently in-game), the storyline for them would probably be a lot different than the usual D&D tripe.

Or maybe that was warhammer...

Those games had this vision of dark elves as a demonic/vampiric race of incontrovertibly evil, and beautiful-only-in-a-goth-way people. The "incontrovertibly evil" bit is what makes them so stupid - in the real world, people can be quite evil in the name of good (ref: nazis), but are never evil in the name of evil, because being evil is obviously never good for the whole group, it's good only for those at the top. Good guys have strong inhibitions about killing subordinates, bad guys do not, and most people are subordinates in basically all political systems besides anarchy or true democracy (only in terms of ruling, not economic systems, and remember that america is a republic, not a democracy, since we have elected officials - real democracies do not; every citizen votes on every issue). Powerlust is an occasional means to make people follow some obviously evil group, but tends to fizzle when the person is either completely outclassed by the leader, or has no way of becoming powerful.

In all cases, groups of people who are obviously evil are a strong exception to the norm. Rather than having an entire nation built around those principles, they would be small cult-like groups in the underworld of that nation. Because, like I said, groups like the nazis _think_ they're good guys. When I say obviously evil, I'm talking about groups who know they're evil and love it. Besides pirates, I can't think of many. (Yay pirates!)


Assassin's dark elves would only be called "dark" because of their relatively dark appearance (black hair), and their choice of habitat (caves). They'd be just as good-hearted as regular elves.

Needless to say, this is all moot discussion, because it would be months before we add these guys - we have to basically redo half the graphics in-game for team colors and better animations first.

[Foxwolf]

Who and what are these "High elves" I think I have seen them but did not know they were called high, could someone perhaps post some images of these elves? If so I would appreciate it...

[scott]

It has already been done. If you spend some time searching for "High Elves" posts by Jetryl, you will discover some rather beautiful images.

[Thrawn]

Hey, you've made a few yourself. That makes you part of the problem.

No, I'm the problem. No one's had as many faction ideas as me!

that they've posted! But your special--you come up with good ones

About the whole two many factions thing: Isay don't make sweeping statements about what will happen in the future until we get there: I think time should determine--if we say now that we'll take factions A,B,and C, and none other, it would suck if a faction T comes along that is different, balenced, has all the artwork needed, and is perfectly reasonable, and the only reason not included is someone said no more.

TBS, I don't think there are that many factions out there that actually would meet the criteria (If there are some in place besides preference) yet, and maybe won't be.

On another note, I notice that so manythings don't happen due to inertia, meaning some good contributions are given an acronyn and not much else eg, some campaigns that people admit are better than ones already around aren't officially added.