Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

O.O This is the first time someone's ever sprited my design and I feel giddy for a bit lol.

However, please don't mind me being blunt and nitpick my way through XD! I know I may not have a right to do so since you're volunteering to help but I'd like to see it perfected. It's looking quite close to what I have in mind though.

It does look a little cramped...In your opinion, is that design suitable for a level 1 unit? Perhaps a simpler outlook is better, huh? By the way, it seems that he's wearing a metal/plate armor instead of a leather armor. Anyway, do you mind resizing the buckler so it's smaller? And Have fun with the spear design, mine's crappy. It looks good on pixel though somehow lol. But I'd like to see them use perhaps a simpler spear design. And that piece of red cloth in the middle isn't supposed to be there - since there's only 4 drapes (I hope you get what I mean lol). Also, it'd be interesting to see both a male and female variation. Perhaps with some hair coming out from the hood if it's a female? I honestly liked the wings, but perhaps it might just be me unable to look at it properly with the buckler blocking most of it lol. Could you perhaps do a standing pose that the wings are neatly tucked in. Then another for flying pose, with the wings opened up (and flapping? lol)

You have my thanks for pitching that in!

Edit:
I'm also happy that you actually paid attention to the little details like their general size. I compared them with an elf, and they are shorter. Just what I wanted!

Edit 2:
Upon closer inspection, The model could use a belt. I'll draw a quick sketch on how the waist cloth wraps around the model and how the belt ties it all together if you need it.

Give me a day or two btw, and I'll come up with a portrait so that you can pick up more details like hair and stuff :D!

In all honesty, I think your idea of having metal armor looks interesting. In your opinion, would it be too heavy for that unit to handle?

She looks as if she's hunching though, maybe position the face 1 pixel higher and 1 pixel to the left?
Last edited by orangebox on May 6th, 2012, 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

I think that the ability "fly", could work against an flying opponent. It is conceivable that avian can keep out of reach of another avian
For the code, ask in the WML forum. I try to see what it can give but I do not think my code works. Anyway, I think this version does not match what you want to make this capacity.
Attachments
avian fly.cfg
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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Oh yes, I kept thinking of pitting them against other races, I forgot about how they fight each other lol. Especially in the sense that they are attacking flying units with melee. I think It'll have to be that the 'dive' special will only be applicable to ground units. Thanks for the heads up franco!

Anyway, I've got to admit this; I am no good with scripts or coding in any sense. However, if there's anything that I need to know or can easily learn/read I'll be more than willing to take my time to read it :D So currently I have no idea what I can do with the script you gave me D;

*off to edit the list again*

Edit 1:
Announcement: The first post of this thread has been edited as well to allow for easier referencing!
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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

The code I posted is an attempt of an ability that allows not be attacked in melee. More precisely, if an unit attacks in melee unit with "fly", the number of attacks of both switches to 0. There was an attack but noy effect of combat. But experience counts for a fight, even if no one hit or try.
So if that's what you want as effect, post a new thread in the WML Worshop forum (http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=21) with my code as a starting point.

If what you want is what The_Other offers (or similar), also post a new thread in the WML Worshop forum, without my code, but with that of The_Other, if he does it and if you wait tit for begin discussion of the code.
orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Ah thank you for your contribution. You raise a good point; "But experience counts for a fight, even if no one hit or try." However, if the damage is turned to 0 and the unit with 'fly' counter attacks, that unit will be grounded instead (therefore getting the much more weaker area defence). Thus this renders the unit free only from the first strike. Sorry to say franco, this isn't what I am aiming for. What I am looking for in detail is listed on the first post of this thread. I have organized the info, so if you'd like to attempt another script, you're more than welcome to take a look at the specifics :)
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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

This is not the damage but the number of attack that is reduced to 0. So no attack, even if that counts for a fight for the experiment. In no case they can not touch.
Even if you prefer a system with change of status (flying / grounded), I suggest you reduce to 0 the number of attack when the unit is in flight and attacked in melee (from ground). If they are out of reach, there is no attack.

Another point I forgot. Regardless of the operation of "fly", it must be disabled in villages and caves. To take posssession of a village or to receive treatment there, we must enter inside.
orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Yes you raise an important point. Upon reaching a village the unit must be grounded. I will add that into the list now. Thanks for the heads up!

However for the caves, fly is still active as I have made the area defence very low; "Cave = 20% / 10% (3)". As such, there is no need for them to be grounded on cave surfaces :)

Edit 1:

I've made a new thread for all portrait art. Seems like it isn't the best place to be posting the portraits here. Please check it out, especially Zerovirus!
orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Name: Rhea (Avian land-based skirmish unit)
Level: 1 or 2
Advances to: (WIP)
Advances from: None or Kingfisher
HP: 29 / 60
Movement: 8
XP: 40
Cost: (WIP)
Abilities: Skirmish
Attacks:
If adv from Kingfisher: Spear (pierce, melee) 8-4
If base unit: Falchion (blade, melee) 6-4

Unit description: As avian warriors, losing their wings in battle is quite easy, and for that they pay a hefty price of losing their most treasured ability - to fly. However, their tenacity for battle has groomed the handicapped into a new breed of warriors capable of possessing extreme versatility on foot. Training profusely on footwork, they are able to swerve in and out through the battlefield with the help of their once useless wings acting as rudders. The rheas are famed to gracefully slip through the enemy lines to pick out weakened stragglers with their swords (or spears if adv from Kingfishers).

Resistances:
blade: 0%
pierce: 0%
impact: 0%
fire: -10%
cold: 30%
arcane: -20%

Area defence: (movement cost)
Frozen = 50% (2)
Castle = 70% (1)
Sand = 40% (2)
Forest = 60% (2)
Flat = 50% (1)
Hills = 60% (1)
Mountains = 70% (1)
Unwalkable = -
Swamp = 30% (2)
Cave = 50% (2)
Village = 60% (1)
Deep Water = 10% (2)
Shallow Water = 30% (2)
Coastal Reef = 40% (2)
Impassable = (Impassable)
Mushroom Grove = 60% (2)

Here's a new unit. Comments/critiques and suggestions are more than welcomed. I will need help to decide if they would be a branch advancement of the kingfishers, or basically a new unit branch altogether?
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lipk
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by lipk »

A quick tip: units in a faction usually don't have individual movecost, defence and resistance stats, but are distributed into classes (the so-called "movetypes"). A movetype describes the abovementioned characteristics of a subset of units of the faction (e.g. small-and-quick-avians, ground-avians). This technique means less work on your end, and greater clarity on the user's end, so it might be a good idea to use it.

I have some doubts about the Flight ability. Even if it turned out to be working in multiplayer, I don't think that the AI would be able to handle such units either as enemies or own units. This would largely restrict their usage in campaigns. But we shall see. :wink:
orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

That's an interesting way of looking at unit types. But personally, I'm trying not to conform to basic unit templates and hoping to generalize the entire faction in having similar resistances. However, if my attempts at balancing my units proved futile, I'll have to soon revert to your suggested method XD

Regarding the fly ability, we're trying to work it in a way that even the AI can use it - hopefully XD
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The_Other
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by The_Other »

Flying ability is still a work-in-progress, but my current plan for it (to address AI issues) is that it happens automatically when conditions are met, so the AI doesn't get a choice of using it or not. There is still a problem that the AI can't anticipate anything inside [event] tags, so it won't account for the effects of abilities like this - the way I'm trying to get around this is to use a 'red herring' effect that the AI can understand. So the avian units may have (for instance) a weapon special which automatically slows them when they fight in melee. The AI will see this and try to avoid melee where possible - but the player will know that, in fact, there's an [event] which negates this effect and implements the correct one.

It's a question of finding a stimulus to make the AI react in the way that a player would, which is to say finding something it can understand and which would cause it to behave in that way.
Nothing is true; everything is permissible.
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lipk
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by lipk »

That's an interesting way of looking at unit types. But personally, I'm trying not to conform to basic unit templates and hoping to generalize the entire faction in having similar resistances. However, if my attempts at balancing my units proved futile, I'll have to soon revert to your suggested method
I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I didn't suggest to reuse existing unit templates. You can create your own movetypes, for e.g., you can make a movetype which applies to the Kingfisher and all of its advancements, instead of setting different stats for each (which would be kind of confusing, let's admit it). Another one for the Hummingbird branch, etc.

@The_Other have fun with AI programming... :roll: :)
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The_Other
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by The_Other »

What I'm hoping to do is to side-step AI coding completely, by making the AI think that something will happen which it already knows how to deal with. Like I said, my current idea is to use a highly-undesirable weapon special which affects the Avians in melee combat - so the AI will try to avoid melee, because it can see the special and (thinks) it knows what will happen.

If an avian unit gets in a melee battle anyway (either through being attacked, or through desperation), the red-herring weapon special will be negated by an [event] (which the AI can't anticipate), and another [event] will implement the effect that is actually supposed to happen. The result, hopefully, will be that the AI handles the units the way it should, even though it thinks they work in a different way than they actually do.

Heh, I tend to get annoyed by the AI-can't-predict-events issue, but it actually turned out to be really useful here!
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lipk
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by lipk »

For me, everything which is programming and involves an AI is "AI programming". Yes, changing the environment in order to make the computer to do something is AI programming as well, since you need to understand the AI's structure.[/offtopic]

In your place, I'd rather finish some units first and see if the whole concept works well in practice, human against human. By what I don't mean that the script works well, but that it contributes some fun to the gameplay. If it does not, it's probably pointless to start fiddling with AI programming...
orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

I can sort of understand where you are heading for from what I'm reading. That's something that I will never be able to come up with, honestly. Interesting indeed. By the way, if you need specifics regarding the Flight/Fly ability, it's on the first post of this thread for ease of reference - just in case you missed it.

However, lipk has a point and AI may need to be the last priority :)
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