Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

Given the small difference in movement type of flying units, I suggest you again using the same movement type. And of course one other for ground units.
Even if we have several units some agile and other armored But I suppose a non flying avian is an exception.

I find it more logical that the skirmisher is a level 2. A veteran who becomes ground unit, a very specialized unit. And more: speed + skirmisher is a very advantageous combination. Difficult to make a level 1 unit with this great advantage, I think.

I like the sense of unit and I think it makes sense to give it skirmisher. While this is not an a priori capacity of a medium-sized winged.

Deep Water = 10% (2)
Shallow Water = 30% (2)

I suggest you put a higher cost in deep water and a superior defense (the same or almost that in shallow water):
Deep Water = 20/30% (3/4)

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The_Other
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by The_Other »

Grrrr, my @#$&ing computer died on me this morning and I lost everything I've done in the last couple of months :shock: :augh: :x :evil:

So I had to re-start on the flight ability, trying to reconstruct what I'd written from memory and common-sense. I agree that the AI issue is not of the greatest importance. My aim is more to create an ability that suits the feel of the faction, adds something interesting to gameplay, and doesn't make players go "huh?". If I can get the AI to understand it too, that's just a bonus (albeit one which I am really hoping to accomplish).

I also agree with Francophone, high movement and Skirmish is potentially extremely powerful. If you really want it to skirmish at level 1, you would need to balance it by seriously reducing its melee abilities. Maybe the loss of their wings reduces their social status and their value in the eyes of their kin, as a result of which they have to fight either with very poor weapons or none at all?
If you want it to be a good fighter, it probably needs to be level 2 (and not have 60HP!)
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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Aye, I understand. I'll tweak it again. I'm trying to have it emulate the fencers IMO. I'll try to get a decent balancing done on the new unit soon-ish :)

However, it might be my chart being confusing, but the 60HP was for the lvl 2 variation XD

--

Anyway, take your time. There's not too much of a rush since the only unit nearly with a complete animation set is the Kingfisher. So it's going to be far from being implemented XD

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The_Other
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by The_Other »

Orangebox wrote:However, it might be my chart being confusing, but the 60HP was for the lvl 2 variation XD
Actually I found the chart easy to read. What I mean is that, even at level 2, 60HP is excessive for a light skirmishing unit (for comparison, Dwarvish Steelclad has 59, Loyalist Pikeman 55 and Undead Revenant has 47 - and these are all heavily-armoured, front-line combat units. Even the Wose only has 52 - and it's presumably made of solid wood!)

I'll be honest, Flight is not top of my priority list at the moment as I'm more focused on trying to recreate the first four chapters of a novel before it fades from memory completely (I'm prone to moments of idiocy, so I didn't back it up anywhere other than my own system :oops: ). What I can do is write you a very simplified version for rough balancing purposes, then refine it later when I'm less busy (and when I don't hate my computer so much!) - look for it here, later today.
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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

In all honesty, that number was just popped out without much thought XD My bad for taking it lightly. Regardless, take your time with the scripts. Do what you need to do; since I'm already happy that you are volunteering to help.

orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Am thinking of progression branches for hummingbirds.

Scrapping Rhea most likely, while the hummingbirds can progress to crows. Basically, crows are a poison-capable upgrade from hummingbirds. Since hummingbirds are technically a skirmisher unit as well (if it doesn't get grounded), I think that the Rhea line would not be anywhere necessary. From there, they change to nightingales - assassins of the avian faction or the owls, night superiority marksman units (or basically the best lv3 scout unit, I'm thinking that the owls have no sight penalties at night coupled with a huge area of sight). Then there's the eagle/falcon/hawk branch for the pure damage progression route. I can't think of any fancier bird names :9

So it's basically like this:
Hummingbird (lv1)
-Crow (lv2)
--Nightingale (lv3)
--Owl (lv3)
-Hawk (lv2) (lame I know)
--Eagle (lv3) (this as well lol)

For the Kingfishers, the two progression routes are ground tankers or a flying counterpart of a human horse cavalry (huge damage dealers). The ground tankers would most likely be similar of design to the Rhea but share the same exact unit description. (the part where flightless avians are moved to the ground flightless corp)

Kingfisher(lv1)
-Rhea?(lv2) ground-based tanks
--??
-Vulture?(lv2) flying 'cavalry-based unit'
--??

Bear with me, I'm still looking for the names of exotic birds with similar 'characteristics' that share with the general unit design. lol

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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

A tree (graph) of progression of units would be practical.

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em3
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by em3 »

I was thinking about your faction (I love the concept, by the way :) ), and your idea of flight ability. There was something bothering me about it, but I couldn't pinpoint it. Today I finally understood.

The way you envision Avians in flying mode, they should neither have zone of control, or even prevent other units to entering a hex occupied by an Avian. Because, if they avoid confrontation, they really have no means to stop enemy soldier from crossing the area.

Unfortunately, Wesnoth does not currently support multiple units per hex. This means, that a line of flying Avians is in fact an impenetrable wall unless you bring along some artillery. I'm not sure if it matches the feel of the faction - or even makes sense. :?

Post 2:
francophone wrote:A tree (graph) of progression of units would be practical.
Hope this gets displayed properly:

Code: Select all

Hummingbird (lv1)
│
├ Crow (lv2)
│ │
│ ├ Nightingale (lv3)
│ │
│ └ Owl (lv3)
│
└ Hawk (lv2) (lame I know)
  │
  └ Eagle (lv3) (this as well lol)

Kingfisher(lv1)
│
├ Rhea?(lv2) ground-based tanks
│ │
│ └ ??
│
└ Vulture?(lv2) flying 'cavalry-based unit'
  │
  └ ??
Last edited by Crendgrim on May 23rd, 2012, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged double post
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The_Other
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by The_Other »

em3 wrote:The way you envision Avians in flying mode, they should neither have zone of control, or even prevent other units to entering a hex occupied by an Avian.
I can see your point about ZOC, but I think there might be a real balancing problem if they don't have one. On the other hand, they could potentially hover at head-height and still be able to control the area around them.
Also, even if they are well out of reach, I personally would be very reluctant to move through an area where I knew enemies were circling above my head. Particularly with their bird-like nature, I hate to think what might fall on me from above...
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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

em3 wrote:I was thinking about your faction (I love the concept, by the way :) ), and your idea of flight ability. There was something bothering me about it, but I couldn't pinpoint it. Today I finally understood.

The way you envision Avians in flying mode, they should neither have zone of control, or even prevent other units to entering a hex occupied by an Avian. Because, if they avoid confrontation, they really have no means to stop enemy soldier from crossing the area.

Unfortunately, Wesnoth does not currently support multiple units per hex. This means, that a line of flying Avians is in fact an impenetrable wall unless you bring along some artillery. I'm not sure if it matches the feel of the faction - or even makes sense. :?
Ah, that's an interesting look but they do actually have ZOC. It's more like what The_Other mentioned. (I'm surprised that The_Other actually have the same views of how I envisioned the faction) With a unit obviously occupying an area by hovering above it, that would mostly mean that it's a guarded zone. However, their specials are more of a faction flavour instead. A different playstyle if one were to say.

And that unit tree thing sure is nifty. I wouldn't know how to do that :9

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em3
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by em3 »

orangebox wrote:Ah, that's an interesting look but they do actually have ZOC. It's more like what The_Other mentioned. (I'm surprised that The_Other actually have the same views of how I envisioned the faction) With a unit obviously occupying an area by hovering above it, that would mostly mean that it's a guarded zone. However, their specials are more of a faction flavour instead. A different playstyle if one were to say.
I can understand and appreciate the flavour factor. I was just sceptical if the effort to code this sensibly will be worth it. I'm not the one doing it, thought, so it's none of my business. ;)
And that unit tree thing sure is nifty. I wouldn't know how to do that :9
Try quoting my post and copy-pasting the characters that I used to create the tree. I copied them myself from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_ ... _code_page
The forum uses UTF-8 coding, so these characters can be used.
I also embedded the tree in a [code] tag so that a fixed-width font is used. :eng:
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orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Hmm, I think for some of the attack animations, I will need to leave it blank for the time being. Since the units aren't exactly balanced yet, their attacks might change altogether. Especially Kingfisher's ground melee (unsure of comitting to pierce attacks or blade attacks) and Hummingbird's need for a melee (3-3 dagger)

Personally I am not happy with the unit progress names (like owl, crow, eagle or hawk). I'm trying to look for names of exotic birds while the general characterization can remain as the core of the unit's skill design. If anyone has a decent idea for names, please share :)

Currently the Hummingbird has a distinct role. Rather than a damage dealer, I can envision it's uses being a scout and a quick village grabber. Guerilla-like tactics, taking over villagers without a nearby sitter, and buzzing off before a ranged enemy can engage them. Good uses to harass enemy income especially when they lack units to cover the villages on the outskirts.

The Kingfisher can be a decent sitter, albeit a little low on HP. However the area defense on village should be able to allow the unit to sit. Useful as well to commit a kill with equal drawbacks. I'm thinking of the charge skill instead of a 'stunning dive'.

Now, what's left in the unit tree is a support unit. However, the faction has no source of magic, and is very weak against arcane in general. I'm thinking of either a defensive support, or an offensive support - or maybe both - like the elvish shaman. So currently in my mind, it's either a witch doctor (elvish shaman-like unit) or poison based (orcish assassin-like unit).

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francophone
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by francophone »

I imagine (but it's not my faction) a shaman. Why not attack of flock of feathers (blade attack) that slows and is magical (70% chance of hitting). Healer +4 at lvl1.
Or/and an unit with a magical cold attack. Fire or arcane seem not appropriate to birds. Or lightning?

The magic units are not required to have a staff.

orangebox
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by orangebox »

Well, the avian faction has no access to magic. And especially when they do not possess magic, this explains why they are very susceptible to arcane attacks. Basically, an avian's weakness are mages.

Edit:

Hrmm, I'm seeing spear/pike/halberd units always have the first strike special. I wonder if I should give it to the Kingfisher as well?

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em3
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Re: Avian Faction (The faction of winged people)

Post by em3 »

If you compare, for example Elvish Fighter and human Spearman, you'll see that the elf is much more weak to arcane attacks than the human.

This is because, in Wesnoth at least, the more magical a race is, the weaker it is to arcane attacks. If I recall correctly, that is. Someone else could correct me on this. :mrgreen:
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