Khalifate gameplay thread (feedback on balance and bugs)

It's not easy creating an entire faction or era. Post your work and collaborate in this forum.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Locked
nelson
Posts: 91
Joined: March 19th, 2008, 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by nelson »

I think that the problem of how to nerf falcons while maintaining their unique flavor is actually really simple. Here is what I propose:

Raise the cost of falcons to 14 gold, and give them traits to compensate for the cost increase. This will make them simultaneously the most powerful and most expensive lvl0 unit in the game. Falcons are great, but you'll have to think much more carefully about attacking with them or sacrificing them to hold a village if they cost 14 gold, and you won't be able to spam as many of them as you can now. Falcons really need traits because currently Khalifa have no way to get a 9-move unit, which puts them at a disadvantage with scouting and village grabbing and means that certain units like the elf scout will *always* be able to outrun Khalifa, which is annoying. Quick falcons help plug that hole.

If 14 gold isn't enough of a nerf, raise the cost to 15 gold and force players to be *really* careful not to lose them. But don't nerf the falcon in any other way, they're a really fun unit to play with now, they're just too cheap and it's always correct to sacrifice them to hold villages or get ctks on units right now because they are so cheap.

UPDATE: And now I will attach a corrupt savegame that would show how the current cheapness of falcons makes them absurdly overpowered against pierce-vulnerable factions like drakes, if only you could load the savegame.

UPDATE II: Here's a not-corrupt replay of Khalifa crushing Undead, partly because of cheap village-grabbing falcons forcing Horus2 out of position so that I can keep switch without fear.
Attachments
2p_-_Sulla's_Ruins_replay_Horus2_v_nelson.gz
replay of Horus2's Undead getting clobbered by my Khalifate on Sulla's Ruins, partly b/c of cheap village-stealing falcons.
(22.9 KiB) Downloaded 188 times
2p_-_Sablestone_Delta_Turn_9_AlaskanAvenger_v_nelson.gz
Corrupt savegame due to falcon OOS bug. Would show you AlaskanAvenger's drakes being annhilated by falcon+jundi spam.
(19.9 KiB) Downloaded 190 times
Last edited by nelson on May 11th, 2011, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

nelson wrote:I think that the problem of how to nerf falcons while maintaining their unique flavor is actually really simple. Here is what I propose:

Raise the cost of falcons to 14 gold, and give them traits to compensate for the cost increase. This will make them simultaneously the most powerful and most expensive lvl0 unit in the game. Falcons are great, but you'll have to think much more carefully about attacking with them or sacrificing them to hold a village if they cost 14 gold, and you won't be able to spam as many of them as you can now. Falcons really need traits because currently Khalifa have no way to get a 9-move unit, which puts them at a disadvantage with scouting and village grabbing and means that certain units like the elf scout will *always* be able to outrun Khalifa, which is annoying. Quick falcons help plug that hole.

If 14 gold isn't enough of a nerf, raise the cost to 15 gold and force players to be *really* careful not to lose them. But don't nerf the falcon in any other way, they're a really fun unit to play with now, they're just too cheap and it's always correct to sacrifice them to hold villages or get ctks on units right now because they are so cheap.
I like this idea, but the big question mark still is how they would do in the water? If you make them the same price as a fish can the Khalifate ever hope to compete in the water? I've updated the replays wanted to include replays on high-water maps. I'd really like to see more falcon - fish/naga action before making a big change.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Velensk »

I didn't post my last Khalifate replay because my opponent was obviously inexperienced but I was playing as undead against his Khalifa and it seemed to me like there was simply nothing that he could do about ghosts controlling the lake in Wylden Channel and was forced to keep units in reach. He could have done a little more against the bats with the falcons but it would have been risky to do so.

I'd be inclined to say that they should get the feral trait, as it would not dampen the Khalifates already weak water control any but would help make village stealing less of a problem. However, I find that it isn't really fitting for trained hunting birds to be considered feral.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
The Black Sword
Posts: 373
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by The Black Sword »

Is water control that much of a problem? Generally I find that if you have a good flying scout(which the falcon is), you are able to block threats to the land forces from the sea before they can do anything. Both UD and Drakes have this problem to a certain extent and they do fine against the other factions. Sea Power is an asset but I don't think its necessary on any of the current mainline maps.
DrakeKing
Posts: 18
Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 11:22 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

agree with TBS, I think the focus is to much on "khalifate have no water unit" in reality i dont think they need one! Of course though need some replays to show this I suppose so will get some hopefully tonight!
User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

The Black Sword wrote:Is water control that much of a problem? Generally I find that if you have a good flying scout(which the falcon is), you are able to block threats to the land forces from the sea before they can do anything. Both UD and Drakes have this problem to a certain extent and they do fine against the other factions. Sea Power is an asset but I don't think its necessary on any of the current mainline maps.

It's quite possible that you are correct, but "Just because Drakes and UD (and Knalgans) don't have fish" doesn't mean that the Khalifate are okay. Perhaps it isn't a problem at all. I'll repeat what I said above: "I'd really like to see more falcon - fish/naga action before making a big change."
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
Scatha
Posts: 111
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 2:55 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Here are two replays of Khalifate beating Drakes. The key units were Jundi and Falcons. Particularly heavy falcon use in the Caves of the Basilisk game -- almost half my units over the game were falcons!

Wintermute, which maps would you like to see replays for with regard to falcons and water? My guess is that the falcons will tend not to try to fight the sea units in a straight fight at sea, but we want replays with fish and falcons both playing an important part?
Attachments
2p_-_Caves_of_the_Basilisk_replay.gz
Suiciding falcons very effective here.
(32.33 KiB) Downloaded 194 times
2p_-_Fallenstar_Lake_replay.gz
Relatively straight fight against drakes.
(26.34 KiB) Downloaded 204 times
User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

Good question. Here are some 2p maps I'm curious about (against loy, elf, orc):

Wedlyn Channel
Silverhead
Hornshark
Caves
and to some extent Fallenstar. I've seen a bunch of games on that map but mostly against factions without fish. Also falcons really rule there in their current state so that's not so important.

It's also worth noting that we've been focusing on 2p maps so far but many people do enjoy larger games and those tend to use water in ways that 2p maps don't. PoD, Lorris, Waterloo are all things I'd like to see games on against fish too.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Played 4 Khalifate vs drake games now, unfortunately didn't get replays on two of them. Won the first two vs poorer players, and lost the last two vs superiors players so that in itself doesn't tell too much, but in general the falcons were considerably too strong and the jundis probably slightly too strong. Will start trying other matchups now, here's the one replay you don't have yet.
2p_-_Sablestone_Delta_replay.gz
(15.48 KiB) Downloaded 185 times
the battle which I did not get recording of was Fallenstar lake, the khalifate player made a strong attack I believe at dawn using largely jundi and the cav archers, but I tried to keep my burners on the front line so no matter how they attacked they received considerable retaliation in return and would allow the clashers and fighters to easily finish them off on my turn often with a leadership bonus from my chief. It was a fierce fight, but by the end I had killed 16 units and he only 6. At that point he retreated back to his village line, and I built up a huge army of drakes with several saurians and attacked him, killing his chief fairly quickly with a clasher and saurian ambusher from behind his lines. The only real purpose falcons served him in this game was to try for my lower villages across the lake and keep at least 2 unit occupied down there at all times. Although by no means a perfect test, it makes me think that without falcons acting as efficient finishers for the khalifate, the drakes can in general stand their ground against them. Also as I noticed in all 4 of these battles, the khalifate healers were of almost no use in these matches as the drakes were in general more sure thing killers.

EDIT*
Started a game vs loyalists on Silverhead, but ran into a oos error fairly early on where I killed his skirm in a villiage with a falcon and he did not see it as such. Both of us were updated. Thought I'd add the replay as it still might be some use to you.
2p_-_Silverhead_Crossing_replay.gz
(12.98 KiB) Downloaded 191 times
EDIT*
Played another game Khalifate vs Loyalist vs same player. No OOS errors, but he was hit hard by the RNG
Attachments
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_replay.gz
(17.67 KiB) Downloaded 180 times
User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

Not going to get it out tonight, I'll try for tomorrow.

Thanks for the replays!
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Khalifate vs Elf on Silverhead crossing, fairly short as his thrust at the top met with poor luck at first while my attack in the middle was fairly successful. He surrendered on turn 10.

2p_-_Silverhead_Crossing_replay.gz
(14.38 KiB) Downloaded 180 times
Edit*
Khalifate vs Orc on Silverhead crossing (different version then above map) Not sure how much use this will be as I made several mistakes throughout the game resulting in a short and untimely death :oops:
2p_-_Silverhead_Crossing_replay.gz
(13.79 KiB) Downloaded 189 times
khalifate vs elves with falcon spam on the bottom
Attachments
2p_-_Fallenstar_Lake_replay.gz
(26.72 KiB) Downloaded 182 times
DrakeKing
Posts: 18
Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 11:22 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

Some fun Elf vs Khalifate games on Weldyn Channel. We switched roles so that both of us got a chance to be both factions. Falcons are easier to deal with as Elves then they are as drakes but still can be a hassle. Also Arifs seem to be useful in this matchup but I think with shamans to slow them down they arent out of control (note I have only played two games so maybe im wrong on this) Anyways here are the replays, enjoy

*edit* Also I wanted to add on Weldyn its relatively easy to protect your villages from fish since the vills are so close to the keep and you can put pressure on them to scare fish away. Falcons may not have control in a straight fight on water vs fish but they have no need to be there in the first place imo. Water control is more a luxury then a necessity. (hope this statement makes sense)
Attachments
Elves_vs_Khalifate_weldyn_alaskan_avenger.gz
(35.96 KiB) Downloaded 180 times
Khalifate_vs_Elfs_weldyn_alaskanavenger.gz
(16.96 KiB) Downloaded 183 times
mcgriffin
Posts: 37
Joined: April 28th, 2009, 2:22 am
Location: Canada

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by mcgriffin »

Hey I don't know if this is the right place for the art comments but I can't find if there's other feedback threads... Anyway ignore my post if you think it's a distraction on the topic :wink:

Wouldn't it be nice to replace the horses with camels in the sprites? It not only provides the unique 'flavor' of this faction but will make the lore much easier to come up with, and also can explain all the differences with loy mount units.

Just my 2c.
Last edited by mcgriffin on May 12th, 2011, 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scatha
Posts: 111
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 2:55 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Here's a game with the Khalifate winning over Knalgans on Silverhead Crossing.

The Arif was very strong here. Marksman on such a good blade attack really makes it hard for the Knalgans to use footpads/thieves, and it's a very good unit on the attack at day, particularly if you can back them up with a healer. Anyhow I'm not convinced that it's too strong, but I'd personally like to see more of this matchup (it's a little sad if the Arif is strong enough against the dwarf units that it appears all the time and then it's almost never right for Knalgans to use footpads/thieves).
Attachments
2p_-_Silverhead_Crossing_replay.gz
(19.76 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by tekelili »

I hadnt intention of post in this thread as dont trust too much in my 1v1 skills to talk abot faction/faction balance. But I played a game as elves vs Khalifa on HGB and I have enougth confidence in my skills with elves to try give meaningfull feedback.

Looks a balanced match up for me, but probably leads to a stealedmate status where no player want to attack. Jundis are a pain to be attacked by elf player, but an elf fighter on village or forest is also a huge obstacle for Khalife, as its only marksman/magical attacker is mele based. Elvish scouts do a nice job couentering falcons cheapness village steal threat. Woses have a similar role than vs loyalist: A few of them will do a nice job, but you must protect them from naffats guys as you do from mages vs loys. A comon use is shaman+wose on a arif unit and cover them with fighters. Shamans have in this match up their best use among all. I think they will be recruited in largest number here, more than vs ud, knalgan or drakes. Archers are threatened heavily by arifs, so you most use fighters on forest as first line, but archers do good job in help your scouts to control falcons and to do some free damage on arifs or Khaiyal.

From khalifate point of view, I see very difficult attack or advance due to your total lack of chances of negate a hex forest to an elf player, As you dont have any unit with more than 40 def to place there, it becomes less profitable risk your units on low def terrain to remove a fighter on a forest tile (similar with villages, where you get 50 def). It also becomes harder plan an ordenate retrat during night. So I becomed to think that best plan for khalifate players is go hard in jundis and play stealemate style. If Khalita player decide do this, elf player will have serious problems to attack, as his main way to remove units are woses that share same aliegnement as khalifa (as it happens to elfs vs loys). Mages look less usefull here to me, due to huge retaliation from jundis. So any jundy on hill looks untouchable for elf, wich make more difficult find spots where break khalifate lines. Wont dare to imagine how remove a naffat from hill, luckly for elf they are expensive.


I wont attach a replay, because played vs a very skilled oponent that got pawned very hard due to an early attack with khalifa, and dont want ashame him :P
Last edited by tekelili on May 12th, 2011, 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
Locked