Khalifate gameplay thread (feedback on balance and bugs)

It's not easy creating an entire faction or era. Post your work and collaborate in this forum.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Locked
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Undead vs Khalifate, once again the Khaiyal was much too weak to impact, falling easy prey to corpse attack when in range. Corpses proved very valuable throughout the game dealing an easy 7-2 at full day to all the units and often creating a wall in front of them.
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_replay.gz
(20.61 KiB) Downloaded 130 times
Weldyn Channel, inverse rematch
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_replay.gz
(15.21 KiB) Downloaded 124 times
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Jundi spam vs drake.. nuff said
2p_-_Caves_of_the_Basilisk_replay.gz
(22.37 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Another Undead vs Khalifate, fun game, once again used corpses heavily to good effect. Only real fighting took place at day due to the khalifates speed, but still managed to keep even on kills, even managing to kill his chief at full day on his second major attack.
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_Turn_15_(7559).gz
(61.83 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
edit
Loyalist vs Khalifate
Attachments
2p_-_Den_of_Onis_replay.gz
(19.43 KiB) Downloaded 128 times
User avatar
Skrim
Posts: 312
Joined: June 10th, 2009, 7:19 am

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Skrim »

It's kind of clear that the lack of any impact resistance makes these guys vulnerable to Troll spam, Woses, HI and corpses with no defense other than trying to kill them first.

I would suggest the horse movetype get +10% impact resistance - both the Khaiyal and Rami. It would make the Rami more useful, instead of being a more expensive, melee-weak, fragile Jundi with slightly better ranged and slightly more speed as it is now. And the Khaiyal wouldn't be so frail against Trolls and Corpses and HI as it is now.
User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Wintermute »

I still have almost no time but I wanted to make a few comments. First, thanks for the replays, especially all the same matchup side-swapping going on - it's great to see games where we can see the same players play both sides of the matchup. It's also great to see some replays of 2v2 and 3v3 games!

About the corrupted saves: That is a known bug that has a bug report filed already in trunk. I could try renaming the unit in the 1.8 addon but I don't think it can be fixed other than that.

I had intended to drop the Khaiyal's gold back to 20 after changing the movetype so I wish that were in there.

Falcons will probably just take a really long time to get to a stable place. Bats took forever and that type of unit just poses a number of problems.

I'm pleased to see things are now to a point where people are starting to really debate different sides of some of the matchups - that is progress. Personal preference is going to color opinion sometimes. I think that all the matchups seem "winnable" though drakes still seem to be disadvantaged, and surely it's not 'equal' in other matchups. I'm not seeing UD complaints though, and that matchup feels much better to me. Troll use still seems like a open question to me too but I'm not seeing it as "killer" right now in any case.

My big problem with the drake matchup is that I really like the Jundi as is so I am resistant to change it - but that means drakes just don't have a good place to bite, in practice. I'd just like to spend more time with it and play more games myself with that matchup before making up my mind about anything.

In summary: Still busy for the next week, but I'm glad to see people still playing around with these guys, thanks!
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
The Black Sword
Posts: 373
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by The Black Sword »

Here's the end of my game vs Horus, we had to save a couple of times and I'm not sure if the full replay will be shown so I'll put in the other save too.

It contains some interesting fish and falcon action from both sides on weldyn. Horus used a naga to trap my army for night though IMO I was unlucky not to have killed the naga and escaped.
Then I had some interesting combinations with arifs and falcons managing to trap nagas. Arifs work quite well vs fish with 2mp in shallow water, resists vs the fishes attack types and marksman, the falcons can then be used to complete the ZOC.
Unfortunately my first trap back fired due to bad luck and bad play and I think Horus was careless for the second because the game was pretty much lost but it looks like an additional effective weapon for the Khalifa.
Attachments
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_Turn_26.gz
(43.11 KiB) Downloaded 126 times
2p_-_Weldyn_Channel_replay.gz
(45.12 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
Scatha
Posts: 111
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 2:55 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

A quick game, Khalifate over Drakes. Drakes try attacking with a saurian-heavy base. The first night this is beaten back, and the second night while Khalifate retreat, half the map away a falcon and jundi based assassination occurs. Having uncontested rights to the water in the centre gave me a lot of flexibility with the falcons.
Attachments
Weldyn_Channel_falcon_kill_vs_drakes.gz
(13.79 KiB) Downloaded 128 times
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Drake vs Khalifate, delayed jundi spam with usual results, other player was unable to join in inverse rematch
2p_-_Den_of_Onis_replay.gz
(15.29 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

A drake vs khalifate battle on den of onis and an inverse rematch. We both relied heavily on saurians with a few drakes in the front lines to absorb some of the damage, and to my surprise, the drakes won both times. Both times luck was in favour of the drake player, but it this setup certainly seems to have some potential for the drakes.
drake_victory_over_Khalifate.gz
(12.64 KiB) Downloaded 138 times
2p_-_Den_of_Onis_replay.gz
(18.45 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
User avatar
Horus2
Posts: 407
Joined: September 26th, 2010, 1:05 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Horus2 »

The Black Sword wrote:Here's the end of my game vs Horus, we had to save a couple of times and I'm not sure if the full replay will be shown so I'll put in the other save too.

It contains some interesting fish and falcon action from both sides on weldyn. Horus used a naga to trap my army for night though IMO I was unlucky not to have killed the naga and escaped.
Then I had some interesting combinations with arifs and falcons managing to trap nagas. Arifs work quite well vs fish with 2mp in shallow water, resists vs the fishes attack types and marksman, the falcons can then be used to complete the ZOC.
Unfortunately my first trap back fired due to bad luck and bad play and I think Horus was careless for the second because the game was pretty much lost but it looks like an additional effective weapon for the Khalifa.

Khalifate vs Northeners obviously has a problem. If i wouldn't be careless, i doubt it would ever ended... i felt it on TBS' gameplay as well, like he was teasing me with a situation where an attack of my could be decisive, but chances are not that good for me...
Here's what happening in this matchup: both side can regenerate trendemous hp every turn and both of them are pretty sluggish when it comes to charging. So p1 has wrong ToD, p2 arrives to the opponents base, facing a superwall. He might be able to attack, but while p1 rotates his units and keeps a good line formation, p2 can barely kill 1 or 2 units. After that, ToD changes, and the invader has to retreat or he'll became the one who's gonna be slaughtered. Same happens on the other side of the map after that. There's no critical mass, no surprise attack on the other side, even the wandering leader can't decide the outcome (i had Troll in the replay and still). If both players act patiently, it's more stalematish than anything. Only crazy banking seems to have an effect - and by crazy i mean 100+ turns of passivity. If this needs further demonstration, i'll give it another go even if i'll regret this. :mrgreen:

Constructivism:
One thing that can dissolve the stalemate and also in general could be beneficial, beware, radical thoughts:
Apply the tweaks of the 1.9 branch.
Modify the default units in the era so we can experiment with the changes. Playing on the 1.9 could be an option if there would be a downloadable, actual version for that. Of course we want to see the effects of the cav and footie nerf, but could be possible that the Orcish Archer will have a role in the Northeners vs Khalifate matchup. Archers would be more quick thus more able to soften the defense before the trolls' arrival, and also they can cure the 2 hits trauma which makes hard to catch an annoying falcon currently. So again, my proposal: give physical resistances to khaiyal like +10% impact, +20% blade, -20% pierce and a higher cost reflecting these (maybe 22 gold). Khalifate will need Khaiyals against trolls, however grunts, goblins and archers can do more damage to them, thus Northeners with a mixed army might be able to break through defense and reach a critical amount of kills. So they have use less trolls to win, which makes them more vulnerable too because they won't be able to rotate trolls until the end of time in defense. On the other hand, giving +1 damage to Arif looks reasonable to solve this and other stalemates in general for the Khals, which is a well-known issue.

So if you ask me what is the three main task now:

1) Implement 1.9.6 changes
2) Make Northeners vs Khalifate more enjoyable and diverse
3) Give more power to Arif
4) Increase the cost of Jundi by 1, because:
Khalifate like loys still has many unit to choose from
by comparing Rami to Jundi the Rami seems to have little usage
Jundi is the main source of problem against Drakes
and because a versalite unit like the Jundi with a Hakim behind him is OP

Oops, that was four.
AlaskanAvenger
Posts: 156
Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

Another Loyalist victory over Khalifate
loy_vs_khal_on_Den_of_Onis.gz
(21.47 KiB) Downloaded 120 times
The Black Sword
Posts: 373
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by The Black Sword »

So, me and tekelili resolved our differences in a brutal(where is neki these days?) nerds test on HGB. First night was typically tentative from the elves and I prepared to throw everything at him at day. Which I then did, leaving absolutely nothing behind to stop his village grabbers in my area :D . The elves tried a a dawn counterattack on the khalifa but the khalifa managed to beat them back and break a hole for their leader through to one of the elvish castles.
What followed was constant action in the elvish homeland and constant skirmishing in the khalifa's.
In the end my Muharib cut down the Elvish Ranger leader in the middle of our battle in the north.
Apparently I've convinced tek that the khalifa can attack in this matchup and we ended up agreeing that its quite balanced. Everyone who disagrees start shouting :P .

It was quite a fun, interesting game and well worth watching IMO. :)
Attachments
2p_-_Howling_Ghost_Badlands_replay.gz
(23.78 KiB) Downloaded 137 times
User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by tekelili »

I learned lesson: I quit from talk about balance until my records playing vs the top 10 guys of ladder becomes better than 95% loses current one :augh:
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
MrSean
Posts: 9
Joined: December 4th, 2010, 2:43 am

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by MrSean »

Well, I've only played a few games with and against the Khalifate, and never against an actual player, and in an ideal situation I would play multiple games with and against them with each faction, but I'm too lazy for that right now. So here's my info on testing them out:
When playing with loyalists against the Khalifate, the Heavy Infantry and Magi are incredibly useful. HI for obvious reasons (i.e. impact attack) are good, but also because the Jundi and freaking Arifs kept on killing my spearmen and other, non-HI units I recruited; only the HI's had enough hp to survive one or two rounds in combat against them. Mages can actually hit their dudes on hills, but I experienced problems with falcon swarms going around my flank and taking out my wounded mages with lucky charge attacks.
With the Khalifate, the falcons are ridiculously cheap, and they seem to be more useful than originally anticipated. Against wounded, expensive enemies, sending one or more will usually net you some gold, and of course their village grabbing is nice. I would not recommend giving them traits - they'd be too powerful.
Khaiyal are very nice against a variety of opponents but it sucks losing a game because your Khaiyals missed three turns in a row with their single attack. I found that they are great against other Khalifate units because of their two damage types and high hp, and also against undead because they have the best impact attack in the faction and are moderately tough against most undead units.
I didn't use Arif's so much because I found that Jundi and Khaiyal were more widely useful. However, they were for some reason good against another Khalifate player.
I havent' used them against Elves or Dwarves, and I expect that the Arifs will be super-useful against them.
More testing will commence.
User avatar
Skrim
Posts: 312
Joined: June 10th, 2009, 7:19 am

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Skrim »

Another 2v2, this time on Loris River. Scatha's Khalifate + DrakeKing's outlaw Knalgans vs. my Khalifate + kewl's Loyalists.

DrakeKing had lost an earlier Hodor game vs. Scatha when his Rogue was killed by an Arif and Jundi; here he exposed it again and it summarily got killed.

Footpads are presently slightly useful vs. Khalifate doing 7-2 at night, but with a nerf down to 5-2 in 1.9, I don't see them factoring heavily. Thieves might still be of use as support to a Dwarvish force, but pure Hodor in and of itself would be very difficult to use.

As for the Khalifate, not much to say - Falcons' water performance is irrelevant here, and the only thing notable was that they can hold terrain villages better than, say, a feral Bat could with their 60% defense.
And finally, although it's not really related to this game in particular, the Rami is still outshone by the Jundi - and it and the Khaiyal could really have their usefulness boosted by +10% impact resistance, I think.

That's all for now.
~ Skrim
Attachments
Loris_River_Khalifate.gz
(32.43 KiB) Downloaded 123 times
Locked