Khalifate gameplay thread (feedback on balance and bugs)

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DrakeKing
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Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 11:22 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

Am I the only one who thinks grunts are much better vs these guys? Yes you want a few trolls but grunts are much faster and deal the same damage output at night? Maybe people are just going by assumption that trolls are better rather then testing it? I suggest to you orc players try a traditional grunt rush and see how it goes for you:) I will provide some replays with evidence of this when I get some time to play this weekend but I think the balance in this matchup is just fine (as is the Elf one)
Atz
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Atz »

DrakeKing wrote:Am I the only one who thinks grunts are much better vs these guys? Yes you want a few trolls but grunts are much faster and deal the same damage output at night? I suggest to you orc players try a traditional grunt rush and see how it goes for you:) I will provide some replays with evidence of this when I get some time to play this weekend but I think the balance in this matchup is just fine (as is the Elf one)
Actually, any troll will do more damage than a grunt to the units with 20% blade res (Arif, horses), and strong trolls do more damage than strong grunts against the very light infantry (Hakim, Naffat). I think the only unit where they actually deal equal damage is the Jundi... which is normally the most common Khalifate unit.

Anyway, no, you're not the only one. A couple of people (including Rigor, I believe?) have been saying for a while that although trolls are pretty effective, they're also pretty slow and so you should still have plenty of grunts.
DrakeKing
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

Yes you are right I probably should have clarified, Although trolls do more damage it is not enough I believe to make me want to stray away from buying grunts vs Khalifate. Here is a replay vs Wizzy to show grunts being effective. Granted he may not have played the best game in the world but you can see within the first few turns how I had constant pressure on him with what I would consider a standard recruit for Orcs. You can also take into account that I hit rather poor this game and if I hit better would have ended much sooner but that becomes irrelevant. Anyways here's the replay. If any players are wanting to challenge the grunt rush theory feel free to pm me and I will gladly accept.
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Coffee
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Coffee »

Just posting some feedback about the Khalifate.

IMO the Naffat -> Quatif-al-nar -> Tineen line has slightly too powerful melee damage. Level 2 and above fire archer just is too powerful for balancing against undead (since this is a special attack type and like orc archer fire ought to do less than say an elf archer in damage).

For Khalifate against Northerners I remember reading somewhere that trolls might be getting -10% resistance to fire (which would IMO solve the balancing problems in this match up). Be nice to see this put in.

I don't mind the armored horse (the Khaiyal) getting 0% to pierce (maybe it should have -10% at level 1 given the split advancement line). However, it seems like the Rami (and non-armored lines) should really be getting -20% resistance to pierce -- like the other horses in Wesnoth.

You wouldn't pick the blade resistance given the other factions of default for Khalifate. Seems like this and the negative impact resistance needs some reason behind it.

Lastly, the Arif -> Mudafi line seems a little strange. Granted that the spearman line level ups are strange also, but I mean from a playing point of view. Maybe the Mudafi line could have slightly different resistance or movement?

This is of course all my opinion and actually they seem to play pretty much alright at the moment.

Has anyone considered playing AI with Khalifate against other faction AI on a loop in maps where it is generally found with regular default that each faction wins roughly evenly? And then in Age of Heroes?
Velensk
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Velensk »

The AI doesn't win roughly evenly by faction against itself on any mainline map. AI testing is almost completely pointless.
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AlaskanAvenger
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Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

a Khalifate vs Khalifate match, I recruited poorily and had poorer luck so not sure if its worth much.
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Scatha
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Rigor and I played Northerners vs Khalifate both ways around on Silverhead Crossing; Northerners won both times. When I won it was via troll spam and a dose of good luck, while Rigor won through the more tried-and-tested method of better play.
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DrakeKing
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

So after watching some games and playing around a bit locally im curious as to if the Khalil went to far in the other direction? It seems to be not worth the money with such worse resist then what it used to have. 21 gold for him seems rather extreme to me. Some suggestions is either lower his gold or give him slightly better resist (not sure what the proper ones would be tbh) At any rate I think its become a rather ineffective unit for its cost.
Scatha
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Scatha »

Presenting a replay from a 6-player game. Hexcake: Khalifate, Undead, Khalifate vs Khalifate, Knalgans, Knalgans.

Draw inferences as you feel. The main thing I'll point out is that falcons were still great, and still very easy to level. And of course the daring escape by my leader.
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Atz
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Atz »

I keep getting complaints that replays are corrupt when I load them... are other people still getting that? I think it might be caused by the hyphenated unit names - it says "unexpected characters after variable name (expected , or =), value '-'"
AlaskanAvenger
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Joined: February 23rd, 2011, 9:10 pm

Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by AlaskanAvenger »

A couple replays, northerners vs Khalifate on Sullas Ruins and loyalists vs Khalifate on Cave of Basilisk. Falcons seem to be ok, although perhaps a little easy to upgrade, but the Khaiyal is proving to be quite fragile for 21 gold. With the -10 to impact added to the Khaiyals, the Khalifate do not have a single unit with resistance to impact. I think giving them +10 would add greatly to their usefulness and allow the Khalifate to stand a better chance vs loyalists and orcs and make no difference in the drake matchup. The Rami could also use this to increase its usefulness and add to realism, cause no matter what armour a horse/camel is wearing, it will always be more resilient to impact then a dismounted human.
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The Black Sword
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by The Black Sword »

2 nice replays for you, on Silverhead and weldyn.

First is an elf game which seems like quite a fair matchup. With the right units I think the khalifa can put together a good day attack too, though I haven't seen if elves can attack there yet. Falcons were really nice on silverhead, or they would have been if they didn't miss so much :P . They had no fish to deal with tough.

Next game is another northerners one, which we haven't finished. I did a good job of picking off trolls and using their low move against them, I'm not sure if I'll ever manage to kill them all though :wink: . I'd like to play some games from the northerners side to see how it is.

IMO, the Khaiyal should at least get +10% physical resists on the rami (and maybe both get 10% impact resist on top of that) but tbh, one is a heavy cavalry, the other is a light archer, I don't see why their move types should be unified.

The other thing that should be changed IMO is the lvl 2s, most of whom are really weak compared to their counterparts in other factions. The Arif is 18g and a spear 14g, yet the spears level ups are better.
Mudafi should probably be 16-2 with his spear or else given some other ability. I don't know what his background is but the arif's is as an offensive unit so maybe dauntless?
I'd put the Ghazi at around 14-2 marksman then, since firstrike is definetly not as good.
The Monawish needs something extra too, though I'm not sure where he could get it, at least 7-4 and something else too probably.
Muharib and Tabib are ok IMO, though maybe the Tabib's hp could be buffed since he maxes at lvl 2.
Qanas and Saree feel ok, though again not sure of the Saree's hp.
The Khaiyal's lance was stronger than the thunder but the Faris' is weaker, 28 or 30 for the lance would be good IMO his resists haven't been changed either I think.
The naffats level up looks fine.

Long post :D .

EDIT: I also played a 2v2 game yesterday but had to leave during the game, maybe soul steven or one of the others can post the replay.
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Horus2
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by Horus2 »

Here's another nearly completely orcless orcs against the khalifate.
However i'm not saying it gives an important lesson balance-wise, because victory was rather reached by exploiting the possibilites given by my opponent's mistakes.
Khalifate_Alaskan_Avenger_SR.gz
Northeners vs Khalifate on Sulla's Ruins
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tekelili
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by tekelili »

The Black Sword and me, friendly decided to have a elves vs khalifate game and solve our different thoughts about this match up. He let me (with great sportmanship) chose map and I will pick HGB. I hope we can play soon in next days and provide replay :)
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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DrakeKing
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Re: Khalifate feedback thread

Post by DrakeKing »

A fun 2vs2 on Clash! Me (dwarves) and my orc ally made a very nice early push and got a great kill advantage and eventually I killed purple leader. However the Khalifate held tough and with the help of many many many expendable falcons was able to snag villages very easily to almost bring the game back. Watch the replay you will enjoy this one! It seems falcons are incredible at snagging villages once there ally dies in 2vs2 though this is one game so isn't by any means big proof of this. Anyways heres the game.
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