Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion welcome

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Tet
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Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion welcome

Post by Tet »

The title says it all. I found the the Therian monk, aura monk, aura master. Nothing else so far.

I liked the wapon special counter. But I really would like to know, what people think a decent monk should have.
Plz post.
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Velensk
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Velensk »

What are you using it for and what type of monk?

The types of monks that inhabited christian abbeys in the middle ages would not be statted the same way as the martial sects in the east. By the same token a monk intended to be the basic melee unit for a faction would not be statted like a healer or vice versa.
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zookeeper
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by zookeeper »

I want to propose the following stats:

hitpoints 29
kick 21-2 impact melee
chant 8-2 cold ranged (magical)

Here is a sprite. I hope it is useful.
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IPS
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by IPS »

zookeeper wrote:I want to propose the following stats:

hitpoints 29
kick 21-2 impact melee
chant 8-2 cold ranged (magical)
21-2 kicks likes from Chuck Norris xD

The proportion of its hp and its mele dammage are really unbalanced. That unit can kill itself by 2 kicks and this must make the fight of this unit line of only luck.

I would preffer the monk from zookeeper if it deals a mele dammage of 7-2 impact and maybe 6-2 cold ranged (magical?). The hp is fine for a lv1 unit, but that kick atack from the original monk of zookeeper is to strong, it deals more dammage than the impact dammage of a shock trooper (19-2) and the shock trooper is a powerful lv2 unit =/

With the new following stats, it must cost 19 or 20. Im not sure if you Tet want a monk with the stats of a lv1 unit or higher.
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Dixie
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Dixie »

I for one was unable to tell wether zookeeper's post was a joke or not :hmm: I'd be inclined to think yes, but I don't wanna insult anybody. If it's not a joke, I'd say the ranged damage could be arcane instead, and the kick should decidedly be nerfed. I think a monk would be better with a support role, such as some kind of healing, a custom morale bonus (leadership?) of some sort, anything, really. Although the idea of a glass cannon is also interesting.

Anyway, appart from all that, I kinda support Velensk's comment.
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Golbeeze
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Golbeeze »

Maybe he meant 12-2 and didn't notice the typo?
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IPS
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by IPS »

Golbeeze wrote:Maybe he meant 12-2 and didn't notice the typo?
Sounds very logic that!. But 12-2 is very strong for a lv1 unit what haves magical ranged.
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Tet
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Tet »

Nice idea. Guys be creative. I was thinking in terms of an eastern fighting monk. But there is this Robin Hood style monk too. The name was Brother Tuc or so.

Any ideas for fitting weapon specials and/or abilities? I deceided a bit to stay away from the obvious healing. But I like all ideas. It is hard to come up with something exciting and balanced and usefull. So please be creative and bring in ideas AND built on ideas of others too.

Coming up with level and advancements is a nice addition but not as important as fresh ideas to me right now. And please post strange ideas too. Joking is especially appreciated. So if anybody is laughing: make your own funny idea.
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Velensk
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Velensk »

You still have not told us what you want to use these stats for or what they are intended to do.

Traditonally more militant western clergy used maces; supposedly to not shed blood while not inhabitting their ability to crush skulls (though litterally crushing skulls without sheding blood would be quite a trick). EDIT: A historical note on this point. Plenty of them (very visibly the knights templar) used swords however in at least one case (I think it was Bishop Otto, who companioned Sir William of Normandy) were said to use maces for that reason. As a result it is considered 'traditional' and is why the D&D rulebooks have a rule to that effect. However there is no reason why you cannot arm them with swords (I believe that Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood mythos is usually said to be a fearsome swordsman.

If you are looking for something like that then you might want something like this:

Deacon -> Bishop -> ArchBishop
human
lawful
heavy infantry movetype
mp 5
hp 34 -> 48 ->62
xp 45 -> 90 -> 100
cost 15 ->27 ->44
Mace: 6-3 impact ->9-3 impact ->10-4 impact
no special -> no special -> illuminates

This would be a decent tanking melee unit (especially against blade) that at level 3 would gain the ability to act vaugely like a leader.

For a more traditonal Benedictine (the people that 'monk' traditionally referred to were mostly of this order) you'd probably want something like

Novice -> Monk -> Father
human
lawful
smallfoot
mp 5
hp 26 -> 38 ->56
xp 12->26->40
cost 12 ->22 ->31
prayer (an attack which deals no damage but has a unique range so that the enemy does not retaliate, used to gain exp)
healing+4 -> healing+8/cure -> healing+8/cure and leadership

These units would not fight but would be very cheap support and as long as you can keep them alive while they pray at their enemy or get attacked they could level fairly quickly into much better support units.

If you are looking for a more fanatatical or more agressive unit them maybe something like
Missonary -> Preacher -> Tisrok
human
lawful
smallfoot
mp 5
hp 35 -> 48 ->62
xp 42->80->100
cost 15 ->30 ->45
Rod: 9-2 impact -> 12-2 impact -> scepter 12-3 impact
Fanatasism: Custom ability like leadership except +40% per level instead of 25% and in addition anyone affected gains a -20% penelty to resistances (does not change no matter what the difference in level is)

There is plenty of veriety in what you could do with the eastern sects as well. If you want a unit to serve as basic melee unit then you might want to try-
Novice -> Adept -> Master
human
neutral
custom movetype like smallfoot except with slightly better defense everywhere and 20% impact resistance maybe a slightly better move
mp 6
hp 33 -> 47 ->65
xp 50->100->100
cost 17 ->32 ->46
Fist: 4-4 impact counter -> Fist: 6-4 impact counter, Kick: 13-2 impact -> Fist 9-4 impact counter, Kick: 19-2 impact stun (temp removes ZoC)

If you're looking for a mixed fighter then maybe
Novice -> Adept -> Master
human
neutral
custom movetype like smallfoot except with slightly better defense everywhere and 20% impact resistance maybe a slightly better move
mp 6
hp 30 -> 43 ->60
xp 40->80->100
cost 15 ->28 ->38
Fist: 4-3 impact, Ki blast(ranged): 6-2 arcane ->( 5-4, 10-2 )-> (7-5, 17-2)

Or if you're just looking for something off the wall you could try a unit that advances into four or five different units based on the eastern elements and then back into one which has the power of all five
Inate
human
neutral
smallfoot
mp 5
hp 30
xp 33
cost 12
Fist: 6-3 melee
-> Earth Adept, Fire Adept, Water Adept, Wood Adept, or Metal Adept
movetype/mp:
Earth(4mp resistance to impact, bonus move through hill/mountains/caves)
Fire (5mp resistance to fire, bonus move through desert)
Water 6mp resistance to cold, bonus move through water)
Wood (5mp resistance to peircing, bonus move through forest)
Metal (5mp resistance to blade)
Hp (Earth 56, Fire 44, Water 42, Wood 48, Metal 50)
xp 90
cost 32
Earth (fist 9-3 impact) Fire (fist 8-3 impact, flame blast (ranged) 9-2 fire), Water (Fist 5-5 counter) Wood (fist 7-3 impact) Metal (Sword 8-4 blade)
Wood has the 'regeneration' ability.
-> Master
Has a custom movetype with all the previous movement bonuses and resistances (plus arcane resistances)
Hp 62
Xp 150
Cost 48
Fist 10-4 impact counter, Sword 8-5 blade, Flame Blast(ranged): 9-3 fire.
Regenerates

The point is that there are so many ways we can go based just on the idea 'monks' that we could keep at this for a very long time and it would be greatly inefficent to do so unless you give us a concrete focus by telling us what you want to use them for. I've already taken the time to write down just a few of the ideas that came to the top of my head but even if one of these is the one you want the time spent writing down the others was probably wasted. So far all I really have is that you want it to be a monk and for it to be a fresh idea (which none of what I've listed is btw, don't go looking for things that are new, go looking for things that do what you need).

EDITED to try to clarify
EDITED repeatedly to correct minor mistakes.
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Tet
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Tet »

A lot of great ideas! I like prayer, fanatic and stun.

I like the concept of no bloodsheed. However I would prefer a bigger difference to paladin or cleric (white mage).

Therefore it would be proberbly mixed fighter. Maybe more swift.
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Velensk »

I think that I'm going to stop trying to help you until you actually start to pay attention.
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fog_of_gold
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by fog_of_gold »

I think he isn't going to create such a unit, he just want to have interesting inspirations and ideas. You could properly also just spam special abilities and you would do what he want.

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tr0ll
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by tr0ll »

afaik the essence of monk is asceticism (giving up worldly goods) and meditational practice of some discipline, though it need not be religious. thus you have monks who make liquor or write scrolls or do research or advance martial arts or teach or simply meditate. they usually separate themselves from their supporting population whom they get recruits from and may provide service to. if they are to be used with any integrity in a rpg combat game like BfW, they must have some higher ethos or philosophy-in-practice about them which prevents mere exploitation of their wondrous abilities as if they were just mercenary units. so you could make up almost any special stats but you need a story first.

in existing Wesnoth campaigns the monk-like characters have usually been mages, e.g. Elyssa of UtBS, the shadow mages of Liberty, the mermaid priestesses of Dead Water. the orcish shamans of SotBE exercise their greatest power when they unite to call the Great Horde, but are pretty weak for every day use.

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Kapoue_II
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Kapoue_II »

Have you played TsoG? If so, you will know that the troll warbanner/wizard has an ability called shield, used to increase resistances of sorounding units. Rename holy aura, stick it on a monk, and let rip.

Tet
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Re: Looking for unit stats for monk type unit-Suggestion wel

Post by Tet »

Wow, I like the explanation of ascetism. Thats what I am looking for. An Ascet.
I am not happy withe all this mage orders. I am looking for some more hands on ascet.
I like defensive abilities to bring on some peacefull attitude. In that sense Shield/Warbanner/aura is a great idea.

@Velensk: Thanks for all the detailed input. I am really more looking for ideas how to make an interesting unit with some attitute somewhat inbetween full mage and full fighter.

UPDATE:

I am settling for counter and distract for leaders. Basically some neutral footpad with attitude. I am not sure if counter is really usefull.
Last edited by Tet on December 4th, 2010, 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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