Multiplayer Competitive Era

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Fosprey
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Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

I love wesnoth visual, i love wesnoth music, i love a lot of things in wesnoth.
I love strategy games, specially turn based ones (Mainly because i don't like to improve excution skills)
For one reason or other there is a shortage of those.
I want to make an era that is SPECIALIZED on making 1v1 matches, played in a competitive way, as intersting as possible.
Of course intersting is a subjective concept.
So, having the actual wesnoth as reference what i mean with more interesting is.
a)Increasing Mind games
b)Decrease luck influence

In order to achieve this i'm learning the WML code and i have a programmer friend that will look into the source code this weekend.
I will not abandon the project if i don't see repsponse, since i know enough people that will help and play the game, i'm posting this because any interested person is welcome.

I know the objectives, but not the ways, so i will ask some question i have been already talked with some people and i'm looking for opinions.

1) Luck
We have all agree, that for now the luck on traits are intersting, and doesn't degenerate at all, in fact is possible in the future we look for more traits and even three traits units, since it looks intersting.
But the main concern is evasion, that is the main source of luck in the game. So we have so far found 3 answers to reduce the luck weight there.

a) Most drastic - Remove evasion and change it To armor increase or decrease.
b) Sauron System- (make only a % of the damage random, and the other Fixed)
c) Less drastic - Just do a general decrease of evasion so hits are more likely to hit in general and give units more hits in general
Any other suggestion is welcome

2) Mindgames
I'm sure there is a big terrain to explore, but just for start i could only think of the most basic thing, FOG.
Vision is very high in my opinion to left much to the imagination. I have already make some threads about it, but i will put it here.
There are some ideas i saw around and probably a mix of them or one of them is the best option in reference to wesnoth, i would like ideas on what would be the best and why.

a).Zoc Line of sight
b).Reduce in one the sight of units
c).reduce the scouts speed
d).Update the new vision of the units only once they finished their turns

I know that ther are other options there and you can bring it on, if you think are interesting.

Making more specialized units, i think will increase the mind games, any other suggestion to increase mindgames is also welcome.

I've also thoght about adding different buildings besides the standard village, but that's low priority for now.

That's all for now.

Update 1: I'm the only one in my ciricle that's defending the more luck based approach, everyone else just say that determinstic is the only way to go, so i think i will make it 100% determinstic unless someone provide me a good argument.
My only idea is to change the evasion for armor increase, if anyone have a better idea, is welcome.

Update 2: we had our reunion and we made list of what we need, starting too look specifically into the damage part of the code.

Update 3: My coder doesn't have much time but he told me he woudl have the whole combat system ready by the end of may.
Last edited by Fosprey on December 6th, 2010, 3:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

chains
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by chains »

I love the idea, but my very first thought is WAY to complex. Start with something simple. and make it happen. If you try to do something this radical all at once, you'll end up getting no where.


I have also always thought Fog was too easy to "remove" Simply reducing units vision might be a great mod to normal gameplay, and make scouts more worth while. Why not give just this one feature a shot?

Fosprey
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

Just to start i would like to change how the damage is done.
I don't know if it's too complex, i don't know anything about C++. But my friend does and will look into the code the next 3 days and will talk to him on monday, after that i will tell him exactly what i want to do with the damage, and then it will take 1 or more two days , for him to check into that part of the code specifically. He will tell me then how complex it is.
I talked with most of the group and they are ALL in favor to going to a fully deterministic damage system. So we consider terrain will give extra defense instead of evasion, (so if you have 50% all the damage will be cut in half), if you have a better idea for it, it would be welcome. But i think i can't give a time on when the deterministic system is ready until next Friday. If someone that reads this thread want to talk to my friend to help him on this matter and you know C++ coding , plz tell me and i will send you his contact.

Weeksy
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Weeksy »

You'll probably need to rebalance unit stats, then. Low-strike units will get a bit overpowering, while mages will probably get underpowered.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down

Fosprey
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Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

For what i know refering to the old unit evasion skill, is al ot more complicated than just creating a new field for units, if we do that, then we probably have to assign the proper new system to every unit(and thus any era not based on the new system won't work), and thus yes the game will change a lot, i'm expecting to do a total revamp of units. We are talking if just trying to make wesnoth units as close as possible as they are now, and start testing to see how it works, or starting from scratch and doing completly new units.

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Dovolente
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Dovolente »

I've also wondered how feasible it is to make a less random MP era (the "Furng Era" :) ). I think if the attack event created variables that gives details about the attack and defense, it could work. A spearman attack with melee, for example, would set vaules in a variable:
attack.category (melee)
attack.type (pierce)
attack.damage (7)
attack.strikes (3)
attack.special.firststrike (1)
attack.special.slow (0)
attack.special.magic (0)
etc.

This sort of era would be possible with such info in variables--I think. Or maybe there are better ways to get that info. But without being able to get it somehow, it would be nightmare trying to implement the idea with WML. :)

Perhaps we could beg the devs to make such an attack event variable (that could also be generated for attacker/defender_hits/misses), as such variable info would have all sorts other interesting applications:
a monster that -feeds- on magic
a creature that gets 'decapitated' if attacked with a sufficiently high melee damage attack
a stone-skinned creature that breaks blade weapons
a magic shield that 'fires back' missiles that are shot at it,
a mirror that reflects magic,
a clay creature that shatters when attacked by impact
a 'swordsman' unit who does riposte damage when attacked by blade, etc).

That could have *lots* of fun potential beyond just the Furng Era... :)

lord_midnight
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by lord_midnight »

Im also working on something similar, Arena Games, also here on the forum. I encourage you to make changes based on making Wesnoth less luck based. Maybe I can help with maps or unit balancing.

Fosprey
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

Now we have pretty defined what we want and what we need and we will start working on it.

The first thing is that we want a an open ended era, The idea is to constantly bring new stuff to the era, and not try to reach a "perfect point". Like games as TCG, dota or vs fightinng games do.
So the idea is to be a neverending project. We think it will make the era more fun, easier to balance, and easier to work on.
The idea is to start with one and only one side, until most features are completed. I don't want to bugg down the project trying to balance and to think multiple factions.
Another reason for it, is that in most strategy games, the most boring matchups are the mirrors, so if we can manage to make the mirror fun, i think the rest will come easier.
The first side will be based on the loyalist side of the default era. The reason we choosed it is that it has the standard RPS element we want to have.

We have made a list of things we need in levels of priority, the high priority stuff, is what we need to finish before start with heavy gameplay testing, because it will be the core of the gameplay.
Medium priority, are more faction based mods. That are needed to make the first faction work as intended.
Low priority is stuff that we know we want to eventually have, but is not needed at all to start testing the gameplay, and it's not worth bothering for quite a while.

(I added a status line to each feature, they explain themself, except almost completed, it means it's functionally and ready for use in gameplay testing, but there are few details that can be worked
on , like fixing some small annoyances in display, or make it more polished-looking in-game)

High Priority:
1.Make the damage deterministic.
Units will always hit.Damage will be reduced depending on terrain. The values will be +50,+35,+20,0,-20,-35,-50.
Damage will be multiplied by 0.5,0.65,0.8,1,1.2,1.35,1.5. New System numbers should replace old system numbers in the map.
Notes: Recently TSR and Zookeeper have showed a nice way to implement this on WML
If anyone knows a way to change how numbers are displayed in the map, without forcing people to use my binary file, any help is appreciated.
Done for now, thanks to TSR, Zookeeper and paulo. It has a little display bug , but it have 0 gameplay effect (for more information go to http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 87&start=0)
Almost completed

2. Vision
Separate Vision from movement. Units should have a new stat for vision. Vision should work exactly like movement, units should be considered as impassable terrain for vision porpouses.
Units can have "Zoc_vision" property on or off. When on, it's zoc will work for vision porpouses.
Notes: We consider it to be the hardest change to achieve and thus it's the top priority of the coder right now.
Notes2: If someone have an idea on how to do this on WML, any help is welcome
Working on


3. Advances.
Right now units level up instantly when they reach max XP.
New system: Units can have more than it's max XP. They can spend their max XP to level up. (so if a unit have 23/20 , the can spend 20 XP to level up and they will keep 3 XP) leveling up is an option.
It can be used: a) when the unit is standing on a village full HP or it's standing on castle connected to a keep with a ladder(don't need to be full hp here)
b) didn't move or combat this turn. If the unit level ups it consumes all movement.
The posibility to level up instantly should be keep as an ability and/or trait.
Notes: I'm personally working on this in WML, but for now i couldn't do it exactly as i wish, but i think i'm on the track, i just need to understand wml a little better.
Almost completed

Medium priority:

4. XP.
Xp bounty for kills is defined on the main.cfg. Right now the formula is level 0-50%, Level 1-100%, Level 2-200%, Level 3-300%.
Now combat bounty is equal to unit level.
Need combat bounty to be customizable and ATTACKING and DEFENDING bounty to be separated (so unit can get 2Xp for attack a unit, but only 1xp from defending from a unit)
Almost completed

5. Trap skill:
Units should have skills that left a mark on the terrain and trigger once an enemy unit steps in. The skill can be used only once by the unit, until it rest full health on a village
Pending, i have found a dead end for now, and don't know how to progress

6.Unit ambush skill:
Unit can hide in the ZOC of friendly unit.
Notes: easy to do in wml i think
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated

7.Farm skill:
Unit produce 1 gold if rested on a village full hp.
Notes: several eras had done something very similar to it in WML.
Completed!
8.Build skill:
Unit can build only on certain terrain
Notes: This has been done in other eras in WML
Completed!

9.Units gain XP on village
Units resting on village gain 1xp
Completed!

Low priority:

10. Special leader XP:
Leader should get Xp from actions like recruiting , getting advancments and getting skills.
Notes: Pretty easy to do in WML.
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated, but this is low priority and not needed for now

11. Extra information:
Make all the terrain information be displayed below the attack information at the right of the screen.
Notes: No clue about this one, any help is appreciated.
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated, but this is low priority and not needed for now

12. Ranged skills:
Units should be able to use skills from more than one hex
notes: Something liek this can be seen in siege wars era.
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated, but this is low priority and not needed for now

13. Multihex skills:
Units should be able to use skills that affect multiple hexes
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated, but this is low priority and not needed for now

14. Magic system.
Leaders should have an ability to cast spells that take 1 whole turn to cast, it consumes Magic points. The most important feature is that magic should interact with opponent spells.
player 1 cast spell, player 2 cast a spell. Spell of player 1 triggers, trigger effect depends on player 2 casted spell.
Notes:Something like this can be seen in Bob's brotherhood of light rpg
I didn't start with this, any help is apreciated, but this is low priority and not needed for now
Last edited by Fosprey on September 29th, 2008, 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DDR
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by DDR »

Mind game? Open up the map, so it wraps around on itself. Now attack can come from any direction, opening up a lot more options to play mind games. This, I think, would go great with the reduced visibility. And, perhaps, several keeps. :P

"Ooh, look, a scout, I bet is it to distract me. I'd better defend the other direction. ... Or, maybe he wants me to think the scout is a trick, and he really does have his main force behind it. ... or, maybe he wants me to think it's a trick, so I'll guard both sides, and he can clean me up from the top or the bottom. I'd better retreat... but, then he can steal all my villages. I'll attack him, um... but if I do that, and all my units are lumped up, he can run away, but he might be doing the same thing, so I'd move my leader and disperse my units, but then he might find and assassinate my leader... and then... um... where was I? Unh? My time is out? ... Drat."

:D

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Wintermute
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Wintermute »

Fosprey wrote:5. Trap skill:
Units should have skills that left a mark on the terrain and trigger once an enemy unit steps in. The skill can be used only once by the unit, until it rest full health on a village
Pending, i have found a dead end for now, and don't know how to progress
Bob did something like this in his Brotherhood of Light scenario. You place a trap anywhere within 4 hexes of yourself, and then the trap stays until you want to place another one (which replaces the old one). You might take a look at that scenario to see if it is like what you are looking for.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."

Fosprey
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

thank wintermute, i will do it :)
i have most things pretty muche done in one way or another, but thre are many bugs in 1.5 and i'm waiting for the new release to see if they fix the ones that are keeping several things from work.
too bad my era will need a binary swap, and it will be so unless vision can be edited in wml and wmltheme gets A LOT more powerfull than now.

Fosprey
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

Update:
I have the version working with terrain affecting armor with numbers and everthing displayed, so the non luck mod is complete, of course this is not the only thing on my mod so i'm still working on it, not too much because i don't have much time lately and i have only one person helping me.
But if anyone want to use the non luck mod completed you can ask me for it, but you must know you need a new binary file because the number display change is made on c++, i could give you the wml code but you will see a weird display of numbers, but other than that, it will work fine.
don't expect much be done for now since i won't have time until vacations (here in argentina it means january) But i will make some works i think, but i think i will have plenty of time in summer, still i know nobody is crying for me not completing this :), wich of course don't help me into going more active than i am, but i did some stuff, and if someone want to add somethinig or try some of the stuff, tell me and i will send you what i did and i even can get a litle more will to work more even if my time is short.

Fosprey
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Fosprey »

This days i've been trying to figure out the best way to implement damage in the game, i thought i would go for a determinstic damage and terrain will reduce or increase damage. but JW said somwhere that pure deterministic is not neccesary and even not the best.
I've talked to some friends who think units should do less damage the less life they have. (something like in fantasy wars)
I would like to hear suggestions of people about how to change the way damage is done in wesnoth to make it less luck based and more interesting (of course i'm interested on hearing about how to improve the game in any area, but for now damage is my primary concern)

I think in the following weeks i will make a webpage about this mod.

(my c++ programmer is in vacation on australia so on that regard i'm not doing mucH)

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ADmiral-N
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by ADmiral-N »

IMHO:
  • 20% Base damage + 80% random value to decrease random influence
  • Increase number of attacks per damage point in general (e.g. turn 10-2 into 5-4) to broaden the distribution
  • Multiply all damage and HP values to increase damage granularity and fight rounding errors
  • Damage effects (poison, slow, charge, backstab) only work on full damage, keep nr. of attacks to make rebalancing easier
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Madnessbane
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Re: Multiplayer Competitive Era

Post by Madnessbane »

Just a speculation about your comments towards the "luck" involved in wesnoth.

Having a side of a game depended on luck makes it even more dependent on using your mind, its a whole new level to consider. If you actually knew what the outcome of taking a certain action would be then are very few choices. In reality you don't know whats going to happen, and strategy is taking this into account.Remember you are given your chance of success in %, and over the turn of the whole game

If evade becomes armor then you are going to know the outcome from each battle, making the choices simpler, more straightforward, and involving less strategy.

While I appreciate your desire to add more strategy into the game just consider whether luck is actually a bad thing.

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