The Yōkai

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Melon
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Re: Fey

Post by Melon »

I've changed the faction units due to a personal preference.
Centaurs have been replaced by Swarm Walkers and Satyrs have been replaced by Poltergeists. The role of these replacement units is very similar so the mechanics of the faction remain pretty much the same.
I've also renamed the faction to "the Yokai", since "the Fey" didn't quite fit it in my opinion.
Last edited by Melon on August 25th, 2008, 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vendanna
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Vendanna »

They are looking nice tought something to account for:

Yokai is a generic name to define japanese spirits and demons (the japanese demons are considered evil spirits that do harm to humans) and most of these can take human form (Oni would be non humanoid ones).

The kitsune looks lovely, you could either give an advancement to Foxwife or ninetails.

Ghosts and spiritual creatures would rock if you give them a more ethereal gaze, like jetryl did with the actual ghost (translucent), the instruments doesn't need to be translucent however.

If you are going to use japanese myth, you have a really vast amount of creatures to choose from. So in order to give a proper order you should stay coherent with the units you choose from, too diversity would break the "feel" of the faction. (look what happens with the werewolves to see what I'm saying)

I hope to give a proper feedback when I have more time, tough :augh:
"Mysteries are revealed in the light of reason."

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Melon
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Melon »

A playable Beta of the faction is now available for download!
To install simply paste the contents of the zip into your "Wesnoth\userdata\data\campaigns\" folder (WARNING: This overwrites several files inside the EOM folder so don't forget to create a backup first!). Keep in mind that this is still very much a work in progress and nothing of what you're seeing is set in stone at this point. I still intend to replace a fair chunk of the attack icons and animations before this is over. Only the units in shown on the unit tree in the OP are available, units with unfinished promotion trees will simply promote back into the same unit. Make sure to report any bugs you find and don't feel shy about suggesting changes to make the units more balanced.
note: The current version does not support Empowered Myths and Myths RPG.
Last edited by Melon on March 28th, 2008, 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cretin
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by cretin »

the violin i can understand, but for some reason the trumpet for me doesnt... make sense. personal opinion. i do like the change in names though, seems to give you more room than fey could.

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Neoskel
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Neoskel »

I seriously didn't see the switch from irish/greek to japanese type units coming. Makes for an interesting ethnic mix. :|

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Melon
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Melon »

version 0.02 has been uploaded in the OP. I've played around with the faction balance some more. Some of the more notable changes are as follows:
-Weavers have had their unit tree extended and are now recruitable at level 0
-Shroomkin are also now recruitable at level 0 and have lost their ranged attack
-Spriggans have also been bumped down to a level 0 recruit and can no longer slow with their melee attacks (The promoted version however gains a weak ranged entangle attack).

I'm still playing around with the balance, but it's starting to look pretty good. I've played a few computer controlled factions and so far the matches seemed to be relatively fair.

Elerias
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Elerias »

Very nice faction. Interesting units and lovely art. I just wonder if unit advancement tree is complete? I would be sad if so many units would end their advancement on lvl 2.

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Iris
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Iris »

I'll check it out; looks nice, specially the sprite artwork. Did you do it all by yourself?
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14).

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Melon
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Melon »

Vendanna wrote:They are looking nice tought something to account for:

Yokai is a generic name to define japanese spirits and demons (the japanese demons are considered evil spirits that do harm to humans) and most of these can take human form (Oni would be non humanoid ones).

The kitsune looks lovely, you could either give an advancement to Foxwife or ninetails.

Ghosts and spiritual creatures would rock if you give them a more ethereal gaze, like jetryl did with the actual ghost (translucent), the instruments doesn't need to be translucent however.

If you are going to use japanese myth, you have a really vast amount of creatures to choose from. So in order to give a proper order you should stay coherent with the units you choose from, too diversity would break the "feel" of the faction. (look what happens with the werewolves to see what I'm saying)

I hope to give a proper feedback when I have more time, tough :augh:
Aside from the name there's very little that I'm planning on borrowing from Japanese Folklore. The ninetail fox promotion is actually a pretty good idea though, so I'll have to thank you for that one.
As for the poltergeists, I've played around with transparency for a bit but I honestly think they look better opaque.
Elerias wrote:Very nice faction. Interesting units and lovely art. I just wonder if unit advancement tree is complete? I would be sad if so many units would end their advancement on lvl 2.
Keep in mind that a lot of the units start of at level 0, so having a cap at 2 isn't entirely unreasonable. But yes I do intend to extend most of the units to level 3 eventually. The Swarm Lord however will always have a cap at level 2.
Shadow Master wrote:I'll check it out; looks nice, specially the sprite artwork. Did you do it all by yourself?
Thank you. The unit sprites is all original, as it currently stands this is a one-man project.

---
I've added 0.03 to the OP with a few more small tweaks and a couple of new units.

I have a few ideas in regards to the units that I'd like to hear some opinions about:
1. Should poltergeists get the "undead" trait?
2. Should Weavers have a weak melee attack?
Last edited by Melon on March 28th, 2008, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binaryquasar
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Joined: January 12th, 2008, 2:52 am

Re: The Yōkai

Post by binaryquasar »

to the undead part.. perhaps cant tell yet

as to the weak melee attack.. yes not something that would make them useful melee just something to make attacking them hurt a little

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Melon
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Melon »

version 0.04 addresses some statistical changes, gives the weavers a (very) weak melee attack and includes some graphical fixes. Units that have unfinished promotion trees now use the AMLA system rather then promoting back into themselves. All gameplay modes are now supported including Myth RPG and Empowered Myth.
The only new unit in this release is the Diva, a level 3 poltergiest.
Last edited by Melon on March 28th, 2008, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vendanna
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Vendanna »

Playing with these things on the Era of myths and found some things.

Too many lvl 0 on the faction, I was able to compete and swarm the devlings on their own game.

I found these factors fighting against them.

1) You have small priced units recruitable at lvl 0 like them.
2) you have units with more movement than devlings (the sprite function is near the same as the flappers to get villages)
3) You can recruit a leadership unit to boost your lvl 0 (Devlings doesn't have this)
4) Your units have better specials than devlings. (a lot more specials)

As a note, this faction has a huge chance to be rather extreme/unbalanced, since on big maps, like it happens also with the devlings, due to the income cost of most units you can get an advantage upon holding villages. They have low hp, but unlike devlings, they have a ton of specials to cancel it, also the weavers slow reduce the lvl 1 units to weaker lvl 0 attacks giving you the upper hand.

You have an unit without melee attacks, like the dark adept, however unlike him, you have a ton of cheap units to put in front to take the damage.

A thing, you may whonder why I compare them with the devlings. I do so because the feeling is like playing with or against devlings. And the same as annoying.

How you defeat the devlings? easy, being faster than them in the income race, to reduce the gold advantage that favors them (otherwise you are lost) in this the devlings are top players and I have read people trying to balance them by giving a trait to stop their rule on big maps. Your faction works like them but with the addendum of a leadership unit to boost them, healing and slow.

It feels like an hybrid of vampires + windsong + devlings, taking the good things of them.

And about the swarm lord, this is one of the most scariest units at the moment both on idea and gameplay. (Tought I only know that creature from the RPG game anima, tought it probably stole the creature from popular folklore?)

However, this faction has really nice graphics and a lot of creatures that could be used on campaings as neutral units you may find on your trips. and I'm eager to see how they look once more animated. :)

Three cheers for this whonderful faction.

Edit:

Also forgot to mention that lvl 0 units should have the ellipse graphic changed to the no-zoc version (just change the ellipse line of your lvl 0 with this one)

ellipse="misc/ellipse-nozoc"

Edit 2:

The swarm creature has also a weird election of damage type, what a creature composed of bugs should aim it isn't to penetrate (since the tiny fangs of each individual shouldn't reach internal organs) but to "crush" the body of the victim and try to enter throught the orifices (mouth, etc...) to asphixiate the victim.

Between, I saw also that your damage types are rather "unusual" for a faction, in which the predominant damage seems to be impact, in blade we have only the magical girl (those woses hurt seriously) and for pierce we have the swarm walker.

I said unusual because the most common type is blade along pierce with the rarity being impact. Still its something that identifies this faction over the others and makes it special.
"Mysteries are revealed in the light of reason."

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Vendanna
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Vendanna »

Also a note to report, you have placed on the AI recruitment patter "mixed fighter" but there isn't any mixed fighter inside the units. (probably something that was there on previous version) so the AI will not recruit accordingly.
"Mysteries are revealed in the light of reason."

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Melon
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Melon »

Vendanna wrote:Playing with these things on the Era of myths and found some things.

Too many lvl 0 on the faction, I was able to compete and swarm the devlings on their own game.

I found these factors fighting against them.

1) You have small priced units recruitable at lvl 0 like them.
2) you have units with more movement than devlings (the sprite function is near the same as the flappers to get villages)
3) You can recruit a leadership unit to boost your lvl 0 (Devlings doesn't have this)
4) Your units have better specials than devlings. (a lot more specials)

As a note, this faction has a huge chance to be rather extreme/unbalanced, since on big maps, like it happens also with the devlings, due to the income cost of most units you can get an advantage upon holding villages. They have low hp, but unlike devlings, they have a ton of specials to cancel it, also the weavers slow reduce the lvl 1 units to weaker lvl 0 attacks giving you the upper hand.

You have an unit without melee attacks, like the dark adept, however unlike him, you have a ton of cheap units to put in front to take the damage.

A thing, you may whonder why I compare them with the devlings. I do so because the feeling is like playing with or against devlings. And the same as annoying.

How you defeat the devlings? easy, being faster than them in the income race, to reduce the gold advantage that favors them (otherwise you are lost) in this the devlings are top players and I have read people trying to balance them by giving a trait to stop their rule on big maps. Your faction works like them but with the addendum of a leadership unit to boost them, healing and slow.

It feels like an hybrid of vampires + windsong + devlings, taking the good things of them.

And about the swarm lord, this is one of the most scariest units at the moment both on idea and gameplay. (Tought I only know that creature from the RPG game anima, tought it probably stole the creature from popular folklore?)

However, this faction has really nice graphics and a lot of creatures that could be used on campaings as neutral units you may find on your trips. and I'm eager to see how they look once more animated. :)

Three cheers for this whonderful faction.

Edit:

Also forgot to mention that lvl 0 units should have the ellipse graphic changed to the no-zoc version (just change the ellipse line of your lvl 0 with this one)

ellipse="misc/ellipse-nozoc"

Edit 2:

The swarm creature has also a weird election of damage type, what a creature composed of bugs should aim it isn't to penetrate (since the tiny fangs of each individual shouldn't reach internal organs) but to "crush" the body of the victim and try to enter throught the orifices (mouth, etc...) to asphixiate the victim.

Between, I saw also that your damage types are rather "unusual" for a faction, in which the predominant damage seems to be impact, in blade we have only the magical girl (those woses hurt seriously) and for pierce we have the swarm walker.

I said unusual because the most common type is blade along pierce with the rarity being impact. Still its something that identifies this faction over the others and makes it special.
I largely agree with you in regards to the balance of the faction. I'm still in the process of playing around with the stats in order to get the perfect fit. One thing to consider however is that the high reliance on special abilities is both the factions biggest strength and its greatest weakness. For instance when making a successful attack there are three things that a good player will try to do: slow the enemy, use a poltergeist to increase damage and make the kill with their swarm walker to boost the ranks. However if any of those three members happen to die, the attacking force gets severely crippled and what once may have seemed an unstoppable force becomes little more then a collection of weak, low level, low damage troops.
But like I've said I'm still working on the balance. Here's an overview of what exactly I'm trying to do for each unit to keep them from getting too strong:
Poltergeists: These guys have been powered down quite a bit from the original stats I gave them. The current unit is quite weak against mostly anything and its only truly good feature is its leadership. I'm currently considering lowering its speed to 4 to further help prevent unfair rushes.
Changelings: I recently removed healing from this unit and further lowered its price. As it stands, the Changeling is a fragile mage and can easily be countered by most melee units.
Weavers: This is probably the most important unit this faction has since without the ability to slow down their enemies, the Yokai wouldn't last very long at all. The Weavers however are very limited as their defense is bad on all terrain other then mountains and hills. I'm currently considering making them slightly weaker to fire and impact.
Pixies: Pixies make good scouts but are inferior fighters (devling flappers though slower, are actually superior combatants.)
Swarm Walkers: Swarm walkers can seem quite scary at first, the trick to fighting them is to always make the first strike. Their damage drops dramatically as they take damage, while your own units will always hit them for double due to the swarm walker's charging attack. Elementals can counter this unit especially well using their Brazier Creations. I've been playing with the stats of this particular unit quite a bit and I honestly think that by now I've hit the sweet spot where it no longer needs changing (The level 0 swarm spawn however may get powered down at some point in the near future. The level 2 Swarm Lord might receive a slight powerdown as well).
Spriggans: Spriggans are for all intents and purposes miniature woses, at least until they reach their promotion. I'm currently considering lowering their health by just a notch.
Shroomkin: Might be a just a little bit overpowered as it currently stands, I think I may need to experiment with this one a bit more before I can reach a decision as to how I'm going to change it.
---
Aside from that version 0.05 is up, featuring a level 2 Spriggan unit, slightly revised artwork for the Poltergiests, removes heal from changelings and probably changes some unit stats around that I cant recall off the top of my head.

Edit:
Vendanna wrote:Also a note to report, you have placed on the AI recruitment patter "mixed fighter" but there isn't any mixed fighter inside the units. (probably something that was there on previous version) so the AI will not recruit accordingly.
Thanks for spotting that, come to think of it I'll need to remove healer as well since changelings are now treated as archers.
Last edited by Melon on March 28th, 2008, 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vendanna
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Re: The Yōkai

Post by Vendanna »

Nice I'll test the new version.

A thing, the kitsune graphic is a bit displaced to the right, it should be more centered on the ellipse. (probably move the image a pixel or two to the left could do it).
"Mysteries are revealed in the light of reason."

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