Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

One more lvl 0 unit that already exists: the Wose Sapling from The Rise of Wesnoth. Since it's in a mainline campaign it should probably go in your era exactly as it is.
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

Here's a revised and combined tree of the non-humans:

Code: Select all

ORCS
 Lvl 0                    Lvl 0                     Lvl 1

                                            /-----> Goblin Rouser
                                           /
 Goblin Slave ----------> Goblin Spearman --------> Goblin Impaler
               \
                \-------> Goblin Tamer -----------> Wolf Rider

                          Minor Orc? -------------> Orcish Bowman
                                        \
                                         \--------> Orcish Assassin

                          Major Orc? -------------> Orcish Grunt
           
                          Elite Orc --------------> Orcish Leader

DRAKES AND SAURIANS
 Lvl 0                    Lvl 0                     Lvl 1

                                          /-------> Drake Burner
                                         /
 Drake Hatchling* ------> Young Drake ------------> Drake Fighter
                   \                     \
                    \                     \-------> Drake Glider
                     \
                      \-> Drake Guard? -----------> Drake Clasher

                          Saurian Conscript? -----> Saurian Skirmisher
                                              \     
                                               \--> Saurian Augur

ELVES AND WOSES
 Lvl 0                     Lvl 1                    Lvl 2

 Male Civilian? ---------> Elvish Fighter
                   \
                    -----> Elvish Archer
                   /
 Female Civilian? -------> Elvish Shaman

 Elvish Tamer? ----------> Elvish Scout

 Elvish Noble -----------> Elvish Lesser Lord? ---> Elvish Lord

 Wose Sapling* ----------> Wose

DWARVES
 Lvl 0                     Lvl 1                    Lvl 2
 Dwarvish Brawler -------> Dwarvish Fighter
                   \
                    \----> Dwarvish Ulfserker
 
 Dwarvish Watchman ------> Dwarvish Guardsman
 
 Dwarvish Craftsman -----> Dwarvish Thunderer
                     \
                      \--> Dwarvish Smith --------> Dwarvish Runesmith*

 Dwarvish Scholar -------> Dwarvish Witness
 
 Dwarvish Miner ---------> Dwarvish Worker?

 *Runesmith, Runemaster, then Arcanister like in EE or SoF.

MERMEN AND NAGA
 Lvl 0                     Lvl 1

 Merman -----------------> Merman Fighter
         \
          \--------------> Merman Hunter

 Mermaid ----------------> Mermaid Initiate

 Naga -------------------> Naga Fighter

SMALL MONSTERS
 Lvl 0                     Lvl 1                    Lvl 2                    Lvl 3

                           Young Gryphon ---------> Gryphon

 Baby Scorpion ----------> Giant Scorpion

 Wolf Cub ---------------> Wolf

 Spider Hatchling* ------> Young Spider? ---------> Cave Spider? ----------> Giant Spider
Possible alternatives for Minor/Major Orcs to sound less modern-scientific: Lesser/Greater, Weaker/Stronger, Runt/Strong.
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Darker_Dreams
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Post by Darker_Dreams »

Suggestions

Minor Orc -> Orc Runt
Major Orc -> Orc. Orc Goon. Random Orc.
Elite Orc -> Orc Bully


Unless there's already a 0-lvl elvish noble, I'd make the Noble lvl 1 and link the other 0's to it.
If there already is a 0-lvl elvish noble... I think that's just weird.
Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

Only problem with 'orc runt' is that that's what goblins basically are. 'Young Orc' would work for some of the orcs.
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Post by Darker_Dreams »

I thought goblins were a completely separate race. They're generally wherever orcs are, for what reason I don't know... But the reason they're always the bottom is because even runt-orcs can kick all but the most buff of goblins.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather goblins and orcs each be true-breeding races than to have to think about "litters" where there are a couple orcs and a whole mess of leftovers ... err, goblins or that the orc/goblin race is an entire eugenics project gone mad. Even ignoring the questionable taste of those, if you do go either of these routs you, generally, end up with someone trying to wire trolls or ogres or some other madness into the scheme- and it just gets bad.


And, if they aren't, why do they have different racial names? Wouldn't that be like calling human midgets "halflings?"



My assumption, Orcs and goblins arose in a similar area but, while they may have a shared ancestor, are separate and independent. They have developed something of a laurel and hardy madcap relationship, and consequently they end up expanding/migrating in parallel.

As an amusing note, creatures with appetites as voracious as the Orc/goblin tend to be generally indicate having arisen in an area of ample resources- where conservation was unnecessary. In environments where there is scarcity cooperative behaviors generally become the order of the day as communal success is strongly re-enforced because individual behavior tends to, long term, lead to individual failure. Thus, to have the behaviors demonstrated the race would likely have been able to express virtually unlimited consumption for most of its cultural development. The expansionism would then be a result of a fairly recent shock to that system, possibly reaching a critical point of overpopulation, and is an effort to continue their cultural lifestyle.

Either that or they were simply created that way by some malevolent force.

{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
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Post by AI »

Read this: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/RaceDescriptions#Goblins (and the rest of the page)

That's currently accepted wesnoth history and such.
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Post by Darker_Dreams »

AI wrote:Read this: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/RaceDescriptions#Goblins (and the rest of the page)

That's currently accepted wesnoth history and such.
Fair enough.

how about
minor orc -> wirey orc
major orc -> brawny orc
AI wrote:
{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
Because it's fun?
I suppose. Also because it's reflex.
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Darker_Dreams
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Post by Darker_Dreams »

elf lord line;
highborn -> noble -> lord
or
aristocrat -> noble -> lord

Orc;
Lesser Orc= Halfblood.
Major Orc = Orc brute.
Mithridates
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Mithridates »

I have read the descriptions of the drakes and I don't think that Clashers are incapable of fire breathing and flight, they simply fight differently.

"A Drake Clasher is incapable of either flight and fire-breathing, and most assume their relegation to melee combat is because of disability ... It is possible that they have some mild deficiency in those skills"

This means that a single lvl 0 drake would be ok for all types. He/she simply hasn't specialised.

I like the idea of lower level monsters, they seem to fit very well.

I also thought that having a Brute advance to a heavy infantry doesn't work. This involves large quantities of extra armour and the Brute is a more thuggish type of person, who i assume would be chaotic and this person is then lawfull...
I am also unsure about the civilian. He doesn't seem to have any particular aptitudes which would recommend him for the role of a fencer, but I could see him as a footpad, spearman or thief.
Finally, i think that the squire could possibly have a horse, and that the nobleman could also go into the cavalry or horseman, as nobles often could afford to train to ride in their youth. this gives the possibility of a mounted noble youth...

I don't like the idea of a lvl 0 goblin who evolves into a lvl 0. It makes them a bit pointless.

I think that an Orc Bully would be better than a superior/major/whatever orc as it gives the idea of some sort of minor importance in the hierarchy, based on strength. the lesser orc could be an accomplice or crony or something, so they have a sort of lesser role in the 'gang' terrorising the goblins... it could be just like at a poor, grubby school in the centre of a large city, where all the stoopid kids get sent.
:eng: orc leader=headmaster!
Valenwood
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Valenwood »

Greetings! :)
I totally love your work with level 0 units, and the art is sooo adorable :D However, I am also, like the previous poster, having some doubts about the Brute. To me, it seems like the Ruffian could easily just take his place alltogether, especially since the Ruffian already utilizes a club :)

I also like the idea of a mounted level 0 unit, like a noble, or possibly just adding the Horseman and/or Cavalry to the noble's advancement options. I think the Civilian and Initiate are just perfect! :)

I absolutely also like the idea of Drake and Saurian hatchlings, and see no problem with the Drake hatchling being just an "unspecialized" Drake that could pick any Drake path upon leveling up. I think it fits good into the Wesnothian Lore :)

I don't have much to say about the Elf, Dwarf and Orc level 0 units yet, but I hope you guys figure these out too :) Looks promising this far, though.

Also looking forward to seeing art for the proposed level 0 naga and merman!
Armino
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Armino »

The level 0 units for humans are fine to me, now, except that I spotted the initiate is lawful. I'd think it would be neutral, like the woodsman, who can advance to a lawful or chaotic unit, since the initiate can advance to lawful (mage) or chaotic (adept).
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Ken_Oh
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Ken_Oh »

Here's the way I see alignment, if you're a human.

Lawful - You're a regular citizen. You contribute to the community directly and live a regular communal life. You follow the rules of society and you are accustomed to living in close proximity to others like you. This ranges from peasants to nobles, military professionals to entertainers.
Neutral - You are aloof from society. You either live far away from humanity, like a hermit or a woodsman, or you spend most of your time locked up in some magical laboratory to fit in like everyone else.
Chaotic - You distrust society or you have totally gone against the grain of society. You don't follow the rules or laws of society and as such you have to remain in the shadows, figuratively, literally or both. You could be a common thief, a Robin Hood-like character or, like a Necromancer, you could completely break the rules of humanity.

An Initiate is like the privileged kid that gets into the good university. He is completely out in the open in society. It's only until later that alignment choices come up (give into the temptations of dark magic? follow an order of magic that's mainly concerned with helping others or become separated from society because you've always got your nose in a book?).
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by uzytkownik »

About brute - aren't thug and heavy infantry a little bit too ranged path of career?
Velensk
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Velensk »

Not realy.

One is walking around in heavy armor wacking people with a great big mace

The other is just wacking people with a large stick.

There is not allot of diffrence.
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Ken_Oh
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

Post by Ken_Oh »

Exactly, Velensk.

Remember Peasant can become either Spearman or Bowman. These are mainline units too.

So, no, I don't think one guy who swings a club is too different from another guy who swings a bigger club and has more armor.
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