Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

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Lim_Arcadia
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Post by Lim_Arcadia »

OMG! Its like creeping-smallerism! :shock:
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Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius »

I am not sure why you would put a hat on the Nobleman when he is just going to take it off when he levels to a Fencer, and pull it back out of his pocket once he becomes a Duelist. Other than that it looks great.
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Post by jdsampayo »

The knife in the Noble Youth looks strange.
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Stilgar
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Post by Stilgar »

Darth Jordius wrote:I am not sure why you would put a hat on the Nobleman when he is just going to take it off when he levels to a Fencer, and pull it back out of his pocket once he becomes a Duelist. Other than that it looks great.
Darth Jordius beat me to the punch, I was going to mention this oddity as well.
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

I like the sprites, but I am unsure about the idea of having lvl 0's that level into other lvl 0's. Be that as it may, if such a thing were to be implemented, I think this is as good a way as any of doing it.
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

I don't get why the nobleman has an impact attack he loses. He should then have a promotion that has that attack, just like the spearman has a javelineer.
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Concerning double-layered lvl 0s: It has worked fine in a campaign I'm working on. But, since it confuses too many people here, I'll leave it out for now.

Hats: I didn't like the hat either, but I got sick of putting the same old heads on everything. Now I gave the nobleman a ridiculous medieval hat, which could use some work. I like the civilian's hat, though it was just a quick chop job.

Initiate: I had already made the hair longer, to about jaw/shoulder length, but left the scruffiness in because I think academic types are generally less concerned about personal appearance. But, for further differentiation, I went ahead and took the scruffiness out. That, and gave TC on the staff.

Nobleman's staff: I had other reasons for this, but now I like the flavor. I don't think RIPLIB should be a huge concern in what are supposed to be generally non-combat units.

I guess this is turning into an art thread. How about I take it there until I have some real faction stuff to work on?
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Historically, squires would also have been taken from the nobility. What do you think of renaming the "nobleman" and calling him "courtier" or "don" or some such thing?
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Right. According to the original chart, squires were taken from noble youths.

I'll actually have to research what courtier and don mean, so, I don't know.
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Ken Oh wrote:Right. According to the original chart, squires were taken from noble youths.

I'll actually have to research what courtier and don mean, so, I don't know.
"Courtier" could be defined as "someone who regularly attends at a king's court." "Don" is basically a Spanish and Italian title, not unlike the English "Sir" when applied to a knight: for example, Don Quixote, the Spanish classic by Miguel de Cervantes about a madman who thinks he is knight.
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Women

From the art workshop thread (which is sort of turning into a unit discussion thread, much like how this was turning into an art discussion thread :? )

Female lvl0s ----> lvl 1 ideas for loyalist units that don't have female gender
Noblewoman ---> Court Sword Dancer (like a fencer)
Woman Peasant ---> Lady Archer or Huntress (or something to that effect)
Woman Peasant/Woman Civilian ---> Town Defender (like Spearman)

Orcs

I've been thinking about lvl 1s for Orcs. It seems to me that an Orc would have a shorter life cycle than humans, and so they wouldn't really need the "youth" level 0s. They way I see it, Orcs should be classified by size/strength. I would think, in their society, class is determined mostly by physical strength. The reason I think this is because of the Goblin's unit description:
In any litter of orcs, several are born much smaller and weaker than the rest. These runts are called 'Goblins' and are looked down on by the rest of their kin. In battle, these are given the most meager of equipment, and are used as a soak-off force to give the Warlords time to prepare the real assault.
Some speculate that the existence of these creatures is the beginning of a failure of the orcish bloodline, though no one knows enough of their history to state anything conclusive
Goblins are Orcs, in that they are born from the same source. I'm not even sure how Wesnothian Orcs reproduce (some have suggested they might reproduce asexually somehow, which I don't mind...Tolkien Orcs apparently reproduce sexually, but their origins no one can claim to know for sure...the movies show them being created from the dirt, but that's not canon).

Anyway, I'm just saying that some Orcs are bigger and some are smaller, and that should determine social class.

Here's what I think it might look like:

Code: Select all

Goblin Spearman -----> Goblin Impaler
                 \
                  \--> Goblin Rouser

Goblin Tamer --------> Wolf Rider

Minor Orc -----------> Orcish Bowman
           \
            \--------> Orcish Assassin

Major Orc -----------> Orcish Grunt
           
Elite Orc -----------> Orcish Leader
Of course "Minor" and "Major" would not be what the Orcs call themselves (maybe this is the classification from humans who study Orcs?). They would just note that one Orc is bigger/stronger or smaller/weaker than themselves and fit themselves within the hierarchy, likely fighting all the time to bump their class up a little bit.

Here's the tricky bit, since Minor Orcs would no-doubt cost less than Major Orcs, how does one justify the low cost of Grunts and relative high cost of Bowmen and Assassins? I think Minor Orcs would be weaker, maybe only given a crude club, and have a higher exp to lvl than Major Orcs, yet Minor Orcs would have only a slightly lower cost to recruit than Major Orcs. Therefore, Bowman/Assassin cost would hence be the reflection of how many Minor Orcs had to die for 1 to advance. Major Orcs, on the other hand, would have an easier time advancing and so Orcish Grunts would be more plentiful at lvl 1.

This is, of course, assuming these Orcs all went into their military. Maybe most Minor Orcs are regimented to tilling the fields.

Unit brainstorming:

Goblin Tamer
chaotic
cost: 8
armor: normal
HP:16 MP:5 XP:18
ranged: 5 - 2 impact slows (net?)

Minor Orc
chaotic
cost: 5
armor: normal
HP:18 MP:5 XP:22
melee: 5 - 1 impact
ranged: 2 - 2 impact (rocks or something, since they use ranged later on)

(or, maybe Minor Orcs could be interchanged for a farmer variety)

Major Orc
chaotic
cost: 7
armor: normal
HP:24 MP:5 XP:16
melee: 6 - 2 blade

Elite Orc
chaotic
cost: 13
armor: normal
HP:30 MP:6 XP:23
melee: 4 - 3 blade
ranged: 3 - 2

Thoughts?
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

Give the goblins an additional lvl 0 before tamer and spearman just as you do "youths." It would make sense if everyone gets a pre-level, also wouldn't make sense if goblins start out stronger and more expensive than their orc masters. Some more orcish names:

Orcish/Goblin Runt
Weak Orc
Strong Orc
Great Orc
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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I honestly don't think that the Northerners need any additional l0s, apart maybe from a goblin tamer (which would be a cool unit). I always got the feel from them that they had a very short time between being born and being ready to fight, and unlike with humans, all their newborns went straight into martial society at the appropriate level - goblins, archers or grunts. I get the feel that they don't really have civilians - they're either hunter-gatherers or everyone mucks in with the food production outside of wartime.
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

thespaceinvader wrote:I honestly don't think that the Northerners need any additional l0s, apart maybe from a goblin tamer (which would be a cool unit). I always got the feel from them that they had a very short time between being born and being ready to fight, and unlike with humans, all their newborns went straight into martial society at the appropriate level - goblins, archers or grunts. I get the feel that they don't really have civilians - they're either hunter-gatherers or everyone mucks in with the food production outside of wartime.
I would think this too, except for the fact that in mainline campaigns Orcs do have villages that can be occupied. I guess I don't really know, though.
Aethaeryn wrote:Give the goblins an additional lvl 0 before tamer and spearman just as you do "youths."
I like this idea, as I think a lvl 1 Goblin is the equivalent to a lvl 2 Orc. How about this:

Code: Select all

                                      /--> Goblin Rouser
                                     /
Goblin Slave -----> Goblin Spearman -----> Goblin Impaler
              \
               \--> Goblin Tamer --------> Wolf Rider

                    Minor Orc -----------> Orcish Bowman
                               \
                                \--------> Orcish Assassin

                    Major Orc -----------> Orcish Grunt
           
                    Elite Orc -----------> Orcish Leader
I don't know what to call that first lvl 0 for Goblin. Maybe they are slaves, and are the true villagers in an Orcish village (and therefore would be given some farm tool as a weapon). Them being slaves would account for a faction like Free Goblins, who feel oppressed and broke away from Orcs.

Other Goblin names:
Goblin Serf
Goblin Underling
Goblin Cub
Goblin Flunky
Goblin Scrub
Goblin Peon

And, instead of Major/Minor Orc, Aethaeryn gave me the idea:
Lesser Orc
Greater Orc

That would sound more scientific, which is what I think we want since Orcs would just say "He bigger and stronger," and wouldn't be as cognizant of specific social class.
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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I think you underestimate the orcs. The trolls would (mostly) be of the 'he bigger and stronger' level, but i think the orcs would have a much more organised and probably martial-skill-based heirarchy. Look at SotBE. The orcs aren't stupid, they're just direct.
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