Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
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- Aethaeryn
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One more lvl 0 unit that already exists: the Wose Sapling from The Rise of Wesnoth. Since it's in a mainline campaign it should probably go in your era exactly as it is.
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- Aethaeryn
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Here's a revised and combined tree of the non-humans:
Possible alternatives for Minor/Major Orcs to sound less modern-scientific: Lesser/Greater, Weaker/Stronger, Runt/Strong.
Code: Select all
ORCS
Lvl 0 Lvl 0 Lvl 1
/-----> Goblin Rouser
/
Goblin Slave ----------> Goblin Spearman --------> Goblin Impaler
\
\-------> Goblin Tamer -----------> Wolf Rider
Minor Orc? -------------> Orcish Bowman
\
\--------> Orcish Assassin
Major Orc? -------------> Orcish Grunt
Elite Orc --------------> Orcish Leader
DRAKES AND SAURIANS
Lvl 0 Lvl 0 Lvl 1
/-------> Drake Burner
/
Drake Hatchling* ------> Young Drake ------------> Drake Fighter
\ \
\ \-------> Drake Glider
\
\-> Drake Guard? -----------> Drake Clasher
Saurian Conscript? -----> Saurian Skirmisher
\
\--> Saurian Augur
ELVES AND WOSES
Lvl 0 Lvl 1 Lvl 2
Male Civilian? ---------> Elvish Fighter
\
-----> Elvish Archer
/
Female Civilian? -------> Elvish Shaman
Elvish Tamer? ----------> Elvish Scout
Elvish Noble -----------> Elvish Lesser Lord? ---> Elvish Lord
Wose Sapling* ----------> Wose
DWARVES
Lvl 0 Lvl 1 Lvl 2
Dwarvish Brawler -------> Dwarvish Fighter
\
\----> Dwarvish Ulfserker
Dwarvish Watchman ------> Dwarvish Guardsman
Dwarvish Craftsman -----> Dwarvish Thunderer
\
\--> Dwarvish Smith --------> Dwarvish Runesmith*
Dwarvish Scholar -------> Dwarvish Witness
Dwarvish Miner ---------> Dwarvish Worker?
*Runesmith, Runemaster, then Arcanister like in EE or SoF.
MERMEN AND NAGA
Lvl 0 Lvl 1
Merman -----------------> Merman Fighter
\
\--------------> Merman Hunter
Mermaid ----------------> Mermaid Initiate
Naga -------------------> Naga Fighter
SMALL MONSTERS
Lvl 0 Lvl 1 Lvl 2 Lvl 3
Young Gryphon ---------> Gryphon
Baby Scorpion ----------> Giant Scorpion
Wolf Cub ---------------> Wolf
Spider Hatchling* ------> Young Spider? ---------> Cave Spider? ----------> Giant Spider
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- Darker_Dreams
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- Darker_Dreams
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- Joined: February 1st, 2008, 5:26 pm
I thought goblins were a completely separate race. They're generally wherever orcs are, for what reason I don't know... But the reason they're always the bottom is because even runt-orcs can kick all but the most buff of goblins.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather goblins and orcs each be true-breeding races than to have to think about "litters" where there are a couple orcs and a whole mess of leftovers ... err, goblins or that the orc/goblin race is an entire eugenics project gone mad. Even ignoring the questionable taste of those, if you do go either of these routs you, generally, end up with someone trying to wire trolls or ogres or some other madness into the scheme- and it just gets bad.
And, if they aren't, why do they have different racial names? Wouldn't that be like calling human midgets "halflings?"
My assumption, Orcs and goblins arose in a similar area but, while they may have a shared ancestor, are separate and independent. They have developed something of a laurel and hardy madcap relationship, and consequently they end up expanding/migrating in parallel.
As an amusing note, creatures with appetites as voracious as the Orc/goblin tend to be generally indicate having arisen in an area of ample resources- where conservation was unnecessary. In environments where there is scarcity cooperative behaviors generally become the order of the day as communal success is strongly re-enforced because individual behavior tends to, long term, lead to individual failure. Thus, to have the behaviors demonstrated the race would likely have been able to express virtually unlimited consumption for most of its cultural development. The expansionism would then be a result of a fairly recent shock to that system, possibly reaching a critical point of overpopulation, and is an effort to continue their cultural lifestyle.
Either that or they were simply created that way by some malevolent force.
{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
I don't know about you, but I'd rather goblins and orcs each be true-breeding races than to have to think about "litters" where there are a couple orcs and a whole mess of leftovers ... err, goblins or that the orc/goblin race is an entire eugenics project gone mad. Even ignoring the questionable taste of those, if you do go either of these routs you, generally, end up with someone trying to wire trolls or ogres or some other madness into the scheme- and it just gets bad.
And, if they aren't, why do they have different racial names? Wouldn't that be like calling human midgets "halflings?"
My assumption, Orcs and goblins arose in a similar area but, while they may have a shared ancestor, are separate and independent. They have developed something of a laurel and hardy madcap relationship, and consequently they end up expanding/migrating in parallel.
As an amusing note, creatures with appetites as voracious as the Orc/goblin tend to be generally indicate having arisen in an area of ample resources- where conservation was unnecessary. In environments where there is scarcity cooperative behaviors generally become the order of the day as communal success is strongly re-enforced because individual behavior tends to, long term, lead to individual failure. Thus, to have the behaviors demonstrated the race would likely have been able to express virtually unlimited consumption for most of its cultural development. The expansionism would then be a result of a fairly recent shock to that system, possibly reaching a critical point of overpopulation, and is an effort to continue their cultural lifestyle.
Either that or they were simply created that way by some malevolent force.
{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
Read this: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/RaceDescriptions#Goblins (and the rest of the page)
That's currently accepted wesnoth history and such.
That's currently accepted wesnoth history and such.
Because it's fun?{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
- Darker_Dreams
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Fair enough.AI wrote:Read this: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/RaceDescriptions#Goblins (and the rest of the page)
That's currently accepted wesnoth history and such.
how about
minor orc -> wirey orc
major orc -> brawny orc
I suppose. Also because it's reflex.AI wrote:Because it's fun?{This diatribe brought to you by applying game theory and evolutionary biology to fantasy worlds. Why am I doing that?}
- Darker_Dreams
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
I have read the descriptions of the drakes and I don't think that Clashers are incapable of fire breathing and flight, they simply fight differently.
"A Drake Clasher is incapable of either flight and fire-breathing, and most assume their relegation to melee combat is because of disability ... It is possible that they have some mild deficiency in those skills"
This means that a single lvl 0 drake would be ok for all types. He/she simply hasn't specialised.
I like the idea of lower level monsters, they seem to fit very well.
I also thought that having a Brute advance to a heavy infantry doesn't work. This involves large quantities of extra armour and the Brute is a more thuggish type of person, who i assume would be chaotic and this person is then lawfull...
I am also unsure about the civilian. He doesn't seem to have any particular aptitudes which would recommend him for the role of a fencer, but I could see him as a footpad, spearman or thief.
Finally, i think that the squire could possibly have a horse, and that the nobleman could also go into the cavalry or horseman, as nobles often could afford to train to ride in their youth. this gives the possibility of a mounted noble youth...
I don't like the idea of a lvl 0 goblin who evolves into a lvl 0. It makes them a bit pointless.
I think that an Orc Bully would be better than a superior/major/whatever orc as it gives the idea of some sort of minor importance in the hierarchy, based on strength. the lesser orc could be an accomplice or crony or something, so they have a sort of lesser role in the 'gang' terrorising the goblins... it could be just like at a poor, grubby school in the centre of a large city, where all the stoopid kids get sent.
orc leader=headmaster!
"A Drake Clasher is incapable of either flight and fire-breathing, and most assume their relegation to melee combat is because of disability ... It is possible that they have some mild deficiency in those skills"
This means that a single lvl 0 drake would be ok for all types. He/she simply hasn't specialised.
I like the idea of lower level monsters, they seem to fit very well.
I also thought that having a Brute advance to a heavy infantry doesn't work. This involves large quantities of extra armour and the Brute is a more thuggish type of person, who i assume would be chaotic and this person is then lawfull...
I am also unsure about the civilian. He doesn't seem to have any particular aptitudes which would recommend him for the role of a fencer, but I could see him as a footpad, spearman or thief.
Finally, i think that the squire could possibly have a horse, and that the nobleman could also go into the cavalry or horseman, as nobles often could afford to train to ride in their youth. this gives the possibility of a mounted noble youth...
I don't like the idea of a lvl 0 goblin who evolves into a lvl 0. It makes them a bit pointless.
I think that an Orc Bully would be better than a superior/major/whatever orc as it gives the idea of some sort of minor importance in the hierarchy, based on strength. the lesser orc could be an accomplice or crony or something, so they have a sort of lesser role in the 'gang' terrorising the goblins... it could be just like at a poor, grubby school in the centre of a large city, where all the stoopid kids get sent.
orc leader=headmaster!
Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
Greetings!
I totally love your work with level 0 units, and the art is sooo adorable However, I am also, like the previous poster, having some doubts about the Brute. To me, it seems like the Ruffian could easily just take his place alltogether, especially since the Ruffian already utilizes a club
I also like the idea of a mounted level 0 unit, like a noble, or possibly just adding the Horseman and/or Cavalry to the noble's advancement options. I think the Civilian and Initiate are just perfect!
I absolutely also like the idea of Drake and Saurian hatchlings, and see no problem with the Drake hatchling being just an "unspecialized" Drake that could pick any Drake path upon leveling up. I think it fits good into the Wesnothian Lore
I don't have much to say about the Elf, Dwarf and Orc level 0 units yet, but I hope you guys figure these out too Looks promising this far, though.
Also looking forward to seeing art for the proposed level 0 naga and merman!
I totally love your work with level 0 units, and the art is sooo adorable However, I am also, like the previous poster, having some doubts about the Brute. To me, it seems like the Ruffian could easily just take his place alltogether, especially since the Ruffian already utilizes a club
I also like the idea of a mounted level 0 unit, like a noble, or possibly just adding the Horseman and/or Cavalry to the noble's advancement options. I think the Civilian and Initiate are just perfect!
I absolutely also like the idea of Drake and Saurian hatchlings, and see no problem with the Drake hatchling being just an "unspecialized" Drake that could pick any Drake path upon leveling up. I think it fits good into the Wesnothian Lore
I don't have much to say about the Elf, Dwarf and Orc level 0 units yet, but I hope you guys figure these out too Looks promising this far, though.
Also looking forward to seeing art for the proposed level 0 naga and merman!
Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
The level 0 units for humans are fine to me, now, except that I spotted the initiate is lawful. I'd think it would be neutral, like the woodsman, who can advance to a lawful or chaotic unit, since the initiate can advance to lawful (mage) or chaotic (adept).
- Ken_Oh
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
Here's the way I see alignment, if you're a human.
Lawful - You're a regular citizen. You contribute to the community directly and live a regular communal life. You follow the rules of society and you are accustomed to living in close proximity to others like you. This ranges from peasants to nobles, military professionals to entertainers.
Neutral - You are aloof from society. You either live far away from humanity, like a hermit or a woodsman, or you spend most of your time locked up in some magical laboratory to fit in like everyone else.
Chaotic - You distrust society or you have totally gone against the grain of society. You don't follow the rules or laws of society and as such you have to remain in the shadows, figuratively, literally or both. You could be a common thief, a Robin Hood-like character or, like a Necromancer, you could completely break the rules of humanity.
An Initiate is like the privileged kid that gets into the good university. He is completely out in the open in society. It's only until later that alignment choices come up (give into the temptations of dark magic? follow an order of magic that's mainly concerned with helping others or become separated from society because you've always got your nose in a book?).
Lawful - You're a regular citizen. You contribute to the community directly and live a regular communal life. You follow the rules of society and you are accustomed to living in close proximity to others like you. This ranges from peasants to nobles, military professionals to entertainers.
Neutral - You are aloof from society. You either live far away from humanity, like a hermit or a woodsman, or you spend most of your time locked up in some magical laboratory to fit in like everyone else.
Chaotic - You distrust society or you have totally gone against the grain of society. You don't follow the rules or laws of society and as such you have to remain in the shadows, figuratively, literally or both. You could be a common thief, a Robin Hood-like character or, like a Necromancer, you could completely break the rules of humanity.
An Initiate is like the privileged kid that gets into the good university. He is completely out in the open in society. It's only until later that alignment choices come up (give into the temptations of dark magic? follow an order of magic that's mainly concerned with helping others or become separated from society because you've always got your nose in a book?).
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
About brute - aren't thug and heavy infantry a little bit too ranged path of career?
Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
Not realy.
One is walking around in heavy armor wacking people with a great big mace
The other is just wacking people with a large stick.
There is not allot of diffrence.
One is walking around in heavy armor wacking people with a great big mace
The other is just wacking people with a large stick.
There is not allot of diffrence.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
- Ken_Oh
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Re: Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans
Exactly, Velensk.
Remember Peasant can become either Spearman or Bowman. These are mainline units too.
So, no, I don't think one guy who swings a club is too different from another guy who swings a bigger club and has more armor.
Remember Peasant can become either Spearman or Bowman. These are mainline units too.
So, no, I don't think one guy who swings a club is too different from another guy who swings a bigger club and has more armor.