TALAMH - a new era, a new style, a new concept...a new world

[turin]

The the seedling can move, and he has 3 turns to move himself into position, then he gets turned into a tower? Or can the seedling not move either?

[Blarumyrran]

yes

[Inigo Montoya]

UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT

Okay, not exactly new, since I was involved with Talamh at its inception. But as you know I've been away for a while.

That situation's been resolved, but another has arisen. Due to circumstances now beyond anybody's control, Fiach Dubh is unable to complete the project. But she asked me to 'look after everything for her', which I take to include completing her unfinished works, so I'll be continuing the development of Talamh from here.

I intend to remain as true as possible to Raven's ideas, and she left behind a large amount of notes on various aspects of the world of Talamh as she imagined it. This means that I have a pretty good idea of where the project is going, and a detailed plan of how it is to get there (though no idea of any timescale).

1. Alpha-0 release featuring the Danu and Azaysu only, mainly to test the Azaysu and draw attention.

2. Complete work on the Kameha and Risen, and add them for Alpha 1.0. This is where serious playtesting should begin, in an attempt to balance those four factions to provide a frame of reference for the others.

3. Develop new factions one at a time, in parallel with the balancing of the existing ones and in the following order:
The Talamhnach
The Circle (the other human faction, based around beastmasters and mages)
The Slayer

4. Create as many 'historical' scenarios as possible, to flesh out the background of the world. Depending upon how many of these there are they may be released as separate 'expansion' downloads, similar to single-player campaigns but consisting of a number of related MP scenarios.

5. Develop and release 'Faction X', along with a single-player campaign focusing on their arrival (every scenario of which will also be accessible in multiplayer games).

6. More scenarios and campaigns, as well as extensive work on background. The intention is for Talamh to be a living, breathing world, where time passes and things change - which will be reflected in new scenarios and possibly other updates.

Syntax_Error's Fiend faction will be introduced whenever he feels that they are ready (including full stats, working code and at least base frames for each unit). I am of course happy to help with stats and balancing, and I'll do what I can with coding if need be.

The same applies to Wight's Aleidh faction, they can certainly be included at any time - all I need is sprites and stats which fit at least roughly with whatever factions are already released at that point., and at least some rough ideas on their background.

I'm open to any suggestions related to anything at all, I particularly like the Seedling/Tower idea - any chance you could knock up a rough draft of some stats? I actually might introduce some buildable structures for every faction, if I get good ideas for them, to go along with the propopsed 'global spells' - I don't know whether I want to do this or not though, and even if I do it probably won't be for a while.

Irrevenant, I'm guessing you may have misunderstood: the Kameha aren't human, they're more like a kind of troll-yeti hybrid, scaled down to the size of a large human. I do like your idea tough and I actually did a bit of work on a 'stone age' era focusing on the birth of human civilization. Not much ever came of it, but I might pick it up again at some future time if nobody else does it first.

On the other hand, the Talamhnach don't necessarily have to be human...they could conceivably be cast as a more benign branch of the Danu race (High vs. Dark Elves?). The 'metaplot' would work just as well with very slight changes, just as long as there's at least some human presence in Talamh.

That's all I have to say for now.

[Blarumyrran]

im trying not to be overly disencouraging, but death of Fiach left a BIG hole in Talamh development, which I don't think you could cover alone.

WML
Talamh wasnt really only about Gaelic names and new unit sprites. it was about drastically changed gameplay, which means a lot of WML-d abilities. surely there are people skilled enough to do it now(eg Zookeeper), but making them join Talamh development might be hard. should WML pro(s) be recruited for Talamh, it could put the development back on trace. or maybe there are some helpers already that im just not aware of? nevertheless, innovative WML work is a necessity, without which Talamh might just as well halt is development. Fiach promised to help me with WML for my Fiend faction's new abilities, as im complete amateur at it(im not done with unit tree anyway, so it isnt relevant now, but will be soon), and the not-yet-developed Talamh factions need it even more.

Unit Sprites
Personally, i havent got a clue what should be Azayzu and especially Danu anatomy like. Should Danu be like Elves? Spirits? Fairies? Kobolds?

---

also, some notes from me:
* Teleportation. none except my Fiends and some Azayzu unit(whose name i dont remember anymore) should get Teleport. i meant teleporting as my faction special.
* Kameha intelligence. i really hope you have dropped the idea that Kameha should be über-peaceful and über-intelligent. it really doesnt fit with looking troll-like and being on stone age level of civilization.
* Portraits. While Typhon has a recognisable grotesque style, i dont quite imagine it in-game.
* Risen concept. I sincerely hope that Risen will have no zombie-like creatures. Zombies are just smelly disgusting bunch of rotten meat. Also, vampires have already context of sucking people's blood, which makes them evil, which Risen should not be, so i hope you dont put vampire-like beings into Risen too. Skeletons, on the opposite, have that eerie dignity. As do ghosts.
* Unit names. while gaelic might be cool for you people who know some of it, it should be restricted to 1 faction (imo Danu would fit well for that). A common Talamnach grunt doesnt deserve some mystic name. He's just a grunt. Only 1 race should have gaelic unit names.
* The Circle vs Talamnach. While this is probably straightly against Fiach's idea, i suggest they should be a lot more similar. Both have their own human warriors, druids, which are slightly different. Also, they both have their own animals they use in war(a lot more different, eg one has bats, other has wolves etc). I just hate the idea that a few druids command an army of wild beasts, beasts + humans who worship them is much nicer.

[irrevenant]

* Kameha intelligence. i really hope you have dropped the idea that Kameha should be über-peaceful and über-intelligent. it really doesnt fit with looking troll-like and being on stone age level of civilization.

Sure it does ; it's the classic 'noble savage' ideal.

Jared Diamond once said (in "Guns, Germs and Steel") that he found 'primitive' peoples to be just as knowledgable and innovative with the resources they had available as 'civilised' people. They just have less resources to work with.

Given the beneficial effect of exercise on intelligence (and the lack of exercise gotten by most 'civilised' people), I personally suspect 'primitive' peoples may even be smarter on average.

[Inigo Montoya]

death of Fiach left a BIG hole in Talamh development, which I don't think you could cover alone.

I know that, but I'll try - though I'm more than happy to accept any help that anybody might care to offer. Right before she died, she asked me to carry on what she began, and I intend to do that to the best of my ability.

Talamh...was about drastically changed gameplay, which means a lot of WML-d abilities. surely there are people skilled enough to do it now(eg Zookeeper), but making them join Talamh development might be hard.

I've no intention of trying to drag anybody else in, but anybody who wishes to contribute may do so if they wish. Most of the new WML has already been written, and what is to come will largely be modifications or refinements of things already written by Raven and others. And if I need something totally different, if necessary I'll read the WML Reference from start to end and experiment until it works.

Raven left behind among other things, a vast amount of notes on various different projects including Talamh, which I plan to follow as closely as possible. This includes a large amount of WML code, in varying stages of completion, with comments to explain everything - she hated re-doing anything when she'd done it once, so I guess she wanted to leave herself a reminder of how she did things. Working from this, I think I can figure out quite a bit of what is needed - and if I can't, there has to be an answer somewhere.

Unit Sprites
Personally, i havent got a clue what should be Azayzu and especially Danu anatomy like. Should Danu be like Elves? Spirits? Fairies? Kobolds?

Azaysu are already done, they're basically short, thin humans with big heads and small muscles. Danu are like slender humans or elves, with pale skin and blue-black hair. Some may have butterfly- or dragonfly-like wings, but these aren't strong enough to fly with and might not be included at all. The tree-monsters are a cross between a tall human and a small tree, with long branches for fingers, leaves and flowers instead of hair, and bark-like skin.

none except my Fiends and some Azayzu unit(whose name i dont remember anymore) should get Teleport

I don't think anything else will. Magic in Talamh isn't generally as dramatic as that, wizards can't throw fire around or call lightning from a clear sky. The Danu's powers are a gift from their Goddess, all other magic is mainly psychological or connected to healing. There is only one other character (as in, a single individual) in the world who might be able to teleport and she will be specific to just a few scenarios.

Kameha intelligence...really doesnt fit with looking troll-like and being on stone age level of civilization.

It's not entirely supposed to 'fit'. Anoter aspect of Talamh is that it deliberately goes against fantasy stereotypes - heroic undead being one example of this, and the evil, corrupt Mother Goddess another.

Portraits. While Typhon has a recognisable grotesque style, i dont quite imagine it in-game.

Raven already expressed a great liking for Typhon's work, which I fully share. I'd be willing to use other people's work too, if I prefer it - but I really like his 'cartoon-gothic' style, so I may need a bit of convincing.

I sincerely hope that Risen will have no zombie-like creatures....vampires have already context of sucking people's blood, which makes them evil...

They vary depending on how long they've been dead for, but they wear clothing and armour so it won't be too obvious. Their faces will probably be skeletal.

Unit names. while gaelic might be cool for you people who know some of it, it should be restricted to 1 faction (imo Danu would fit well for that).

Luckily for you, my knowledge of Gaelic is limited to being able to use a dictionary. So you're unlikely now to see a large amount of unreadable Irish text - individual names (eg. Konrad, Gweddry, Kaleh) will be Celtic-sounding (for appropriate races) but unit types will be named in English except in unusual cases (for example the Crann Cailleach/Diabhalta).

* The Circle (and) Talamnach...should be a lot more similar...I just hate the idea that a few druids command an army of wild beasts, beasts + humans who worship them is much nicer.

Sorry, but no.
The Circle don't have an 'army' as such, because they're a relatively small semi-religious cult. They get the 'army of wild beasts', because they don't really have anything else to work with. The Talamhnach don't get the animals, because they don't need them and play differently.

[Blarumyrran]

ok.

but another thing im worried about is diversity.

we have

Danu
Aleidh
The Circle
who are all basically tree-hugger factions.

solution:
* change The Circle into more occult style (give control of only sinister animals, such as bats and snakes. also many different magic-users to show its still "humans commanding animals" not "wild beasts creeping around with some mad druids with them" faction).

Aleidh is good, Danu is bad, as much as i understand, maybe that will be enough to separate them.

[-wight-]

Danu
Aleidh
The Circle
who are all basically tree-hugger factions.

well i intended that the Aleidh would live in picturesque surroundings and protect them for their historical (ie homeland, hertage) value and to protect their people. however the do realize the natural beauty of their homeland which is another reason to protect their homeland (because they're 'goodies' and try to protect all things good and beautiful). so they wouldnt cut down a tree for no reason but they would to build a house for a new family.

[Inigo Montoya]

And that's as close as you get to 'tree-hugging'.
The Danu are strongly tied to nature, but do not worship it - they believe that the existence of all other life was an accidental side-effect of their own creation. They'd happily burn down every forest in Talamh, except that then te Risen could easily hunt them down. And their connection to the Crann Cailleach is very much along the lines of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now', since both races are obsessed with destroying every other species.

And the Circle could more accurately be said to use nature than worship it - they aren't hugely different from police dog handlers, but with less emotion. Their animals aren't seen as loyal and beloved pets, but rather as living weapons which are expendable when convenient. There are other aspects to them as well though, they have mastered magic almost as well as the Danu and have a nice line of curses and witchcraft to sit beside their animal-control skills.

The major Talamhnach religion pays respects to Mother Nature, but fears her at the same time, and is equally devoted to dozens of other gods and demigods. And this has no direct impact on the game at all, since their priests have no magical powers but are simply figureheads (very weak unit with Leadership)

[Aisling Morrighan]

Hello, everybody.
As you might already know from reading Fiach Dubh's 'remembrance' thread, I'm her sister. And it seems only right that I do whatever I can to help complete what she started.

I know next to nothing about this game, having played exactly once, but I intend to help however I can with her last 'big' project. I can't really offer too much support with the practical side, though Chris (Inigo) has shown me the basics of WML and I plan to play around with it a bit and see how well I can figure it out.

What I can and will do, however, is Gaelic translation, as well as any amount of storyline and background development that might be needed. Like Chris said, we have my sister's extensive notes to work from, so mostly it's just a case of fleshing out what she's already outlined and filling in a few blanks.

The two of us had a long discussion earlier today, and we've also figured out a much more detailed plan of what we each need to do. To sum up, I'm assuming responsibility for all background information, including unit descriptions and scenario plotlines, leaving Chris to focus on the gameplay aspects including units, scenarios, and programming. We'll be sharing the work on unit graphics, and picking up portraits from anywhere we can - various people have offered help with this aspect, most notably a gentleman by the name of Typhon, and Raven left us with a few sketches that I can try to finish off.

After the Azaysu and Danu descriptions, I'll be working on a detailed description and history of Talamh as well as a large amount of background on each of the various factions. Along with this will come a map of the world, and others of smaller regions of special significance. All of this will be located on a separate site which will be linked from here, so as to allow access to the full background setting without needing to download anything.

I don't want to put any kind of pressure on anybody - but I'm looking at this project as a kind of memorial for my sister, as strange as it seems, so if anybody wants to contribute anything, whether it be background, graphics, code or ideas, it would be greatly appreciated (though we reserve the right to ignore or change anything we don't like!)

By the way, for the benefit of anybody who isn't watching the remembrance thread, we're toasting Fiach Dubh over there right now, so everybody have a drink!

[Temuchin Khan]

What I can and will do, however, is Gaelic translation, as well as any amount of storyline and background development that might be needed.

Sounds good. I wasn't too heavily involved with this project either, but I did help your sister with a few unit ideas, and I did vote in favor of her idea of giving many of the units Gaelic names.

Also, Raven had some very interesting ideas for this era, which will make it perhaps the most unique of all Wesnoth eras once it is finished.

[Inigo Montoya]

I doubt that it will ever be finished as such - like Wesnoth itself there will always be something new to add, or improvements to be made.

Talamh itself is only a few hundred miles across - but there are many thousands of miles of ocean, before you come to the world's edge. This is not just empty sea - there are a vast number of small islands, and possibly larger land-masses too, which could play host to any number of new races or cultures.

The intention is that Talamh will ultimately become a living breathing world, which changes over time. Once the dedicated website goes live (hopefully to coincide with the first fully-debugged and balanced release), we'll be constantly updating elements of the background to reflect the passage of time, which will in turn be reflected by changes or extensions to the era.

Currently, everybody in Talamh is somewhat preoccupied with the Azaysu's apparent 'invasion', contact with the Kameha and the appearance of the Risen. But when the situation becomes more stable, eyes may begin to turn outward once more - leading to exploration by various different factions which will explain why no current map reaches far from the mainland...let's just say there's an awful lot of very good reasons, and they all have very big claws...

Ultimately, development of Talamh will continue on some level for as long as anybody is willing and able to do so.

[romnajin]

Hey,
I'm interested in helping with Talamh, as I think it looks like a very interesting undertaking.

However, I'm not the greatest artist or coder out there(or not one at all), but if there's any busy work required I'd be happy to do it for you. I can see from your posting in every "need help with WML thread" that you may be a bit overworked.

Cheers

[Flarin]

Can we get a list of who is doing what.Who has offered to help ect?

[Inigo Montoya]

Romnajin: yes, I'm a busy little bee
I pretty much have the WML side covered (now - I'm a quick learner, thank God!), and Aisling's working extremely hard on all background information (which probably won't be published anywhere until it's complete, it's a rather tangled web and quite a few things won't make sense unless you can see all of the pieces at once).
If you want to help, the most useful things right now are either ideas* or sprites (anything except the Azaysu - Danu units are listed in this thread, other factions are awaiting development so if anyone makes a nice-looking image, I can create a unit to match it). High-quality artwork isn't an immediate priority, even a really bad placeholder is better than nothing, and anything can be improved upon if necessary.

Flarin: It's kind of hard to keep track of who is/might be doing what, I'm certain of the following but there may be others:

Myself - units for all factions except Fiends and Aleidh, and all WML coding.
Aisling - all background development including unit descriptions (apart from Fiends, Aleidh and Azaysu).
Syntax_Error - Fiend faction, and maybe some portraits.
Wight - Aleidh faction.
Krispos - some units and art for the Circle faction (I think? Fiach Dubh mentioned this, but I haven't heard anything from Krispos himself, so I'll need to check this)
Typhon - portraits for whatever he feels like drawing.

If anybody is/wants to work on something related, and I haven't mentioned you, please PM me and tell me what you're doing, and I'll add you to the list.

* Units for any faction other than the Danu (who are complete and awaiting balancing), the Azaysu are playable but need more low-level units, and I've done basically nothing on any other faction.