Ghost level 2 options:
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Ghost level 2 options:
Okay, so here's the current Ghost situation:
level 1
Ghost
4-3 Cold, drain, melee
3-3 Cold, ranged
level 2
Wraith ------------------------- Shadow
7-4 Blade, drain, melee ----- 8-3 Blade, backstab, melee
4-3 Cold, ranged
Neither upgrade for the Ghost has Cold as a melee option. Now, I know it's probably the common opinion that the Wraith more than makes up for this with it's awsome drain ability, but I was thinking maybe there could be a third Ghost upgrade?
This is what I was thinking:
Spook
25hp
6-3 Cold, drain, melee
5-3 Cold, ranged
This isn't a drastic improvement over the level 1 Ghost, but it gives the player the option to keep a Cold melee attack - something I personally enjoy having against, well, everybody (except Undead, Mermen, and Elusivefoots).
This is more of an idea than a suggestion. I know Undead are a lot better now than they were in 1.0x, so I'm not pushing this with any veracity, but I do think the idea - perhaps not my current numbers - should be considered.
What are your thoughts?
level 1
Ghost
4-3 Cold, drain, melee
3-3 Cold, ranged
level 2
Wraith ------------------------- Shadow
7-4 Blade, drain, melee ----- 8-3 Blade, backstab, melee
4-3 Cold, ranged
Neither upgrade for the Ghost has Cold as a melee option. Now, I know it's probably the common opinion that the Wraith more than makes up for this with it's awsome drain ability, but I was thinking maybe there could be a third Ghost upgrade?
This is what I was thinking:
Spook
25hp
6-3 Cold, drain, melee
5-3 Cold, ranged
This isn't a drastic improvement over the level 1 Ghost, but it gives the player the option to keep a Cold melee attack - something I personally enjoy having against, well, everybody (except Undead, Mermen, and Elusivefoots).
This is more of an idea than a suggestion. I know Undead are a lot better now than they were in 1.0x, so I'm not pushing this with any veracity, but I do think the idea - perhaps not my current numbers - should be considered.
What are your thoughts?
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- Elvish_Pillager
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Well, I voted the first option, but my actual opinion is "Good idea, but..."
It's basically just a wimp compared to the Wraith. Variety is necessary in advancement choices, and it's not good to have one advancement that just fulfills RIPLIB while the others are more powerful. Furthermore, the Wraith violates RIPLIB in a subtler way by barely increasing its ranged attack. Therefore,
Lost Soul
Level 2
23 HP
7 moves
6-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
5-5 Wail
ranged--cold
Banshee
Level 3
30 HP
8 moves
8-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
6-6 Wail
ranged--cold
It's basically just a wimp compared to the Wraith. Variety is necessary in advancement choices, and it's not good to have one advancement that just fulfills RIPLIB while the others are more powerful. Furthermore, the Wraith violates RIPLIB in a subtler way by barely increasing its ranged attack. Therefore,
Lost Soul
Level 2
23 HP
7 moves
6-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
5-5 Wail
ranged--cold
Banshee
Level 3
30 HP
8 moves
8-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
6-6 Wail
ranged--cold
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Since when is that a violation of RIPLIB? If you're refering to the second sentence of rule 1b, then I disagree. I would take that sentence out of the RIPLIB definition in any case btw.Elvish Pillager wrote:Furthermore, the Wraith violates RIPLIB in a subtler way by barely increasing its ranged attack.
JW if you want to make a poll that anyone takes serious and maybe even base a decision on you might want to at least try to give some unbiased options. (spelling acronyms right also helps )
On a related note, I just noticed that the Wraith indeed violates RIPLIB in relation to the Heavy Infantryman. There have been thoughts about changing the melee attack to cold before but this case has been overlooked. We'll probably change it to cold before the next release.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
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Hmm... I voted interesting, and here's why:
PRO:
* RIPLIB, point.
* I like EP's proposal, about the range and the names. OTOH, undead alreay have the Dark Adepts and their upgrades for ranged cold damage... ghost is the only thing that does melee cold damage.
CONTRA:
* I'm kinda attached to the current wraith, blade and all (nice against woses and elusivefoots).
* The Ghost is already very well endowed with upgrades. If the undead get more, I'd be in favor of giving one to the ghoul or vampire bat
PRO:
* RIPLIB, point.
* I like EP's proposal, about the range and the names. OTOH, undead alreay have the Dark Adepts and their upgrades for ranged cold damage... ghost is the only thing that does melee cold damage.
CONTRA:
* I'm kinda attached to the current wraith, blade and all (nice against woses and elusivefoots).
* The Ghost is already very well endowed with upgrades. If the undead get more, I'd be in favor of giving one to the ghoul or vampire bat
The Ghould does need something more I think....bats are supposed to be weak; but that's a different topic.
Also, I'd worry about putting the Cold damage up too high on the melee because almost nothing has cold resistance, so add that with drain and you're in for a world of hurt. Mermen, Wose, and Elusivefoots are the only non-Undead that have have better Cold resistance than Blade (in Default).
One problem I see with your numbers now EP is what was mentioned previously that Dark Adepts start losing purpose if the Cold ranged goes too high.
10-2 ... 3-3
12-2 ... 5-5
12-3 ... 6-6
That gives the Spook upgrade as much Cold damage as a Lich, and the level 2 is better than it's DA counterpart!! Of course, I think that the Adept should get more than +4 to his ranged at level 2.....but that's a different topic as well.
Also, I'd worry about putting the Cold damage up too high on the melee because almost nothing has cold resistance, so add that with drain and you're in for a world of hurt. Mermen, Wose, and Elusivefoots are the only non-Undead that have have better Cold resistance than Blade (in Default).
One problem I see with your numbers now EP is what was mentioned previously that Dark Adepts start losing purpose if the Cold ranged goes too high.
10-2 ... 3-3
12-2 ... 5-5
12-3 ... 6-6
That gives the Spook upgrade as much Cold damage as a Lich, and the level 2 is better than it's DA counterpart!! Of course, I think that the Adept should get more than +4 to his ranged at level 2.....but that's a different topic as well.
After discussing this issue, we've decided to rather change the cold resistance of armoredfoot from 20% to 10%. Changing the Wraith attack to cold would have too many undesireable implications making it too hard to balance. So if you're still concerned about losing the cold attack on melee you'd need to come up with a good branch to remedy that. Not an easy task I suspect.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
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Personally I think this is a good idea, I remember when play TDH that I found how the ghosts were the best way to counter the HI, however I often preffered the ghosts to the wraiths they soon became due to the HI supreme blade resistance.
10% more cold won't mean much change when armoredfoots have 50% resistance against wraith's primary attacks.
10% more cold won't mean much change when armoredfoots have 50% resistance against wraith's primary attacks.
A statement within a signature is a body of absolutist assertions designed to shelter those who cannot abide the cold, hard realities of actually having to prove their claims.
My (crude) instinct is that although there may be a problem, any fix needs to be handled very carefully. Ghosts and Wraiths (and in the hands of a non-AI player, Shadows) are difficult to deal with as it is. A third, cold-melee option would have, I think, to be worse overall than the Shadow or Wraith, and certainly shouldn't have a level-3; otherwise Ghosts would be just too attractive.
(And I'll add my voice to those who'd prefer to see a second level-2 for the Ghoul first. Maybe a Chinese-style Hungry Ghost; those things are nasty).
I agree that 'Spook' is a silly-sounding sobriquet. Alternatives I like: Ghast, Horror, Wight, and the already-suggested Lost Soul and Banshee.
(And I'll add my voice to those who'd prefer to see a second level-2 for the Ghoul first. Maybe a Chinese-style Hungry Ghost; those things are nasty).
I agree that 'Spook' is a silly-sounding sobriquet. Alternatives I like: Ghast, Horror, Wight, and the already-suggested Lost Soul and Banshee.
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