Ghost level 2 options:

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What do you think of this idea?

Good idea - RIPLB
21
36%
Bad idea - Wraith is already overpowered.
9
15%
Interesting idea.
22
37%
No opinion.
7
12%
 
Total votes: 59

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JW
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Ghost level 2 options:

Post by JW » January 12th, 2006, 8:45 am

Okay, so here's the current Ghost situation:

level 1
Ghost
4-3 Cold, drain, melee
3-3 Cold, ranged

level 2
Wraith ------------------------- Shadow
7-4 Blade, drain, melee ----- 8-3 Blade, backstab, melee
4-3 Cold, ranged



Neither upgrade for the Ghost has Cold as a melee option. Now, I know it's probably the common opinion that the Wraith more than makes up for this with it's awsome drain ability, but I was thinking maybe there could be a third Ghost upgrade?

This is what I was thinking:

Spook
25hp
6-3 Cold, drain, melee
5-3 Cold, ranged

This isn't a drastic improvement over the level 1 Ghost, but it gives the player the option to keep a Cold melee attack - something I personally enjoy having against, well, everybody (except Undead, Mermen, and Elusivefoots).

This is more of an idea than a suggestion. I know Undead are a lot better now than they were in 1.0x, so I'm not pushing this with any veracity, but I do think the idea - perhaps not my current numbers - should be considered.

What are your thoughts?

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Post by Lord_Aether » January 12th, 2006, 10:35 am

The Wraith is very powerful, but that has not much to do with going the different direction.
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Post by appleide » January 12th, 2006, 10:53 am

I voted Good idea, but you need a new name, and tweak the stats...

(All i agreed on is that there should be an advance for the ghost with a cold melee attack...)
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » January 12th, 2006, 10:57 am

Well, I voted the first option, but my actual opinion is "Good idea, but..."

It's basically just a wimp compared to the Wraith. Variety is necessary in advancement choices, and it's not good to have one advancement that just fulfills RIPLIB while the others are more powerful. Furthermore, the Wraith violates RIPLIB in a subtler way by barely increasing its ranged attack. Therefore,

Lost Soul
Level 2
23 HP
7 moves
6-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
5-5 Wail
ranged--cold

Banshee
Level 3
30 HP
8 moves
8-3 Touch
melee--cold
drain
6-6 Wail
ranged--cold
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Post by Soliton » January 12th, 2006, 6:04 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:Furthermore, the Wraith violates RIPLIB in a subtler way by barely increasing its ranged attack.
Since when is that a violation of RIPLIB? If you're refering to the second sentence of rule 1b, then I disagree. I would take that sentence out of the RIPLIB definition in any case btw.


JW if you want to make a poll that anyone takes serious and maybe even base a decision on you might want to at least try to give some unbiased options. (spelling acronyms right also helps :P )

On a related note, I just noticed that the Wraith indeed violates RIPLIB in relation to the Heavy Infantryman. There have been thoughts about changing the melee attack to cold before but this case has been overlooked. We'll probably change it to cold before the next release.
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Post by deserter » January 12th, 2006, 6:32 pm

I would also suggest that wraith's melee was changed to cold instead of a new advancement option. If we wanted a new option it would make sense to have ranged-based unit there.

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Post by ozymandias » January 13th, 2006, 5:49 am

Hmm... I voted interesting, and here's why:

PRO:
* RIPLIB, point.
* I like EP's proposal, about the range and the names. OTOH, undead alreay have the Dark Adepts and their upgrades for ranged cold damage... ghost is the only thing that does melee cold damage.

CONTRA:
* I'm kinda attached to the current wraith, blade and all (nice against woses and elusivefoots).
* The Ghost is already very well endowed with upgrades. If the undead get more, I'd be in favor of giving one to the ghoul or vampire bat :P

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Post by JW » January 13th, 2006, 8:43 am

The Ghould does need something more I think....bats are supposed to be weak; but that's a different topic.

Also, I'd worry about putting the Cold damage up too high on the melee because almost nothing has cold resistance, so add that with drain and you're in for a world of hurt. Mermen, Wose, and Elusivefoots are the only non-Undead that have have better Cold resistance than Blade (in Default).

One problem I see with your numbers now EP is what was mentioned previously that Dark Adepts start losing purpose if the Cold ranged goes too high.

10-2 ... 3-3
12-2 ... 5-5
12-3 ... 6-6

That gives the Spook upgrade as much Cold damage as a Lich, and the level 2 is better than it's DA counterpart!! Of course, I think that the Adept should get more than +4 to his ranged at level 2.....but that's a different topic as well.

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Post by Tomsik » January 13th, 2006, 10:41 am

Don't forget adepts have magical weapon.

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Post by JW » January 13th, 2006, 10:48 am

Tomsik wrote:Don't forget adepts have magical weapon.
I did forget....

...still something to possibly consider?

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Post by Soliton » January 13th, 2006, 2:12 pm

After discussing this issue, we've decided to rather change the cold resistance of armoredfoot from 20% to 10%. Changing the Wraith attack to cold would have too many undesireable implications making it too hard to balance. So if you're still concerned about losing the cold attack on melee you'd need to come up with a good branch to remedy that. Not an easy task I suspect.
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo » January 13th, 2006, 2:31 pm

Personally I think this is a good idea, I remember when play TDH that I found how the ghosts were the best way to counter the HI, however I often preffered the ghosts to the wraiths they soon became due to the HI supreme blade resistance.

10% more cold won't mean much change when armoredfoots have 50% resistance against wraith's primary attacks.
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Post by Mustelid » January 13th, 2006, 3:29 pm

My (crude) instinct is that although there may be a problem, any fix needs to be handled very carefully. Ghosts and Wraiths (and in the hands of a non-AI player, Shadows) are difficult to deal with as it is. A third, cold-melee option would have, I think, to be worse overall than the Shadow or Wraith, and certainly shouldn't have a level-3; otherwise Ghosts would be just too attractive.

(And I'll add my voice to those who'd prefer to see a second level-2 for the Ghoul first. Maybe a Chinese-style Hungry Ghost; those things are nasty).

I agree that 'Spook' is a silly-sounding sobriquet. Alternatives I like: Ghast, Horror, Wight, and the already-suggested Lost Soul and Banshee.

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Post by ozymandias » January 13th, 2006, 4:16 pm

Well, Ghast should be a Ghoul upgrade, if there'll ever be one.

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Post by Mustelid » January 13th, 2006, 4:31 pm

ozymandias wrote:Well, Ghast should be a Ghoul upgrade, if there'll ever be one.
If we're taking D&D as precedent, sure. How desirable that is would be a gigantic thread to itself.

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